Shame on the Princeton band -

Posted by fromoff on September 21, 2008 at 2:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Try sitting rows up from the Princeton band and explaining the aggressive behavior of the cadets and the presence of policemen to your eight and ten year old children. Try walking down the ramp with your young daughter to get some drinks and having two large groups of cadets (at least fifteen to twenty in each group) staring you down. And while you are at it, be sure to talk to the young women from the visiting team's band that was harassed to tears on the way to the bathroom. Then tell me that the Citadel cadets and leadership are without shame.

From a disappointed Southerner.

Posted by tigerfan94 on September 21, 2008 at 5:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

They are without shame, it is the Princeton band who displayed a lack of respect and sportsmanship.They owe The Citadel a apology for their bad behavior, the cadets were protecting what is theirs and were right to do so. They made a female band member cry? so what, they insulted their school and mocked them what did they expect to happen at a military school? Did they really expect to be greeted with a warm showing of southern hospitality? When you make an obvious attempt to disrepect them by invading their campus and trying to take over? What do you think would happen if they attempted to march onto a parade field West Point while cadets were on the field? I can promise you it would not be a warm greeting. why didnt you explain to your daughters that Princeton had displayed poor sportsmanship and caused the bad feelings by displaying a total lack of respect toward the Citadel Cadets and their campus.OOH RAH! to the Cadets for protecting THEIR school and THEIR parade field.Congrats to The Bulldogs for sending the Tigers home with their heads down in shame.

Posted by lowcountrydawg on September 21, 2008 at 5:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Great job by the "Warriors of the Ashley" for defending their turf. They let these retarded individuals come down to the South and mock our Cadets. These men and women who are committing their lives to 4 years of military-type training instead of going to a liberal arts school to party and miss class by oversleeping. Shame on Princeton...I thought they wer IVY League??!!

GO DAWGS!!!!!!

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 8:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

fromoff -- you can explain to them that this is what might happen when visitors demonstrate such bad manners and disrespect, especially towards a school steeped in such pride and tradition. So much for Ivy League sophistication.

From a disappointed northerner.

PS: Score More! Score More! Score More! Score More!
How clever these Ivy league fellows are...../sarcasm

Go DOGS!

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 8:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

is it wrong to walk the campus ? I think cadets are wrong here for bullying people. these are the traits of low self esteem people who can't deal with something different and don't know how to act besides fighting when confronted with intelligent civil minds.
I have seen this Princeton show before and didn't enjoy it and I agree they shouldn't disrupt college classes (marching?)

Posted by Tulane75 on September 21, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In 1975-76 the Tulane University basketball team played the Citadel in Charleston. They had long hair and stripes on their uniforms. We heard many of the same comments about disrespect and apologies owed. Apparently, in the era following Vietnam, the Tulane team didn't look right for The Citadel and its fans. Not that it matters, but Tulane is every bit as Southern as The Citadel!

I like The Citadel, but it sounds to me that they have (had) a "chip" on their shoulder(s). This was a football game, not a turf war!

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe these honorable young men and women shouldn't be hazed so much. Bullying and harassment are not trait's for our nations military elite but I guess they have been under the bush way of life and think this is a proper American response to weird people walking on a field.
In 2006, The Citadel released a survey that found the school leading other military academies in reports of sexual assault and harassment. In response to the results, the college put in place the VALUES and RESPECT PROGRAM, which requires all cadets to participate in lessons on sexual harassment and assault, alcohol and drug abuse and the school's honor code.

Posted by scconservative on September 21, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HighDef, get some treatment for that terminal BDS case ya got there! What are the juvenile fools that post this tripe going to do when George Bush leaves the WH?

Posted by Lea243 on September 21, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Did any of the parents get upset watching Santa being stabbed during half time? I could not believe that the band was allowed to continue on after the first "stab" in light of recent college campus acts of violence. I have lost all respect for Princeton and there should be a letter of apology sent to the Citadel from each member of that band.

Posted by rld1771 on September 21, 2008 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Let's shell Ft Sumter! :-)

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm glad this band can take Charlestonian's mind away from the youth burning crosses in your (ass)backyard.Santa getting stabbed is better than him having gay sex right ? I watched santa get drunk on TV ! I guess the onset paranoia has subsided and the cold truth of his unsuccessfull presidency is now a fact in our countries history.
Bush Derangement Syndrome as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency — nay — the very existence of George W. Bush".[

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HighDef - Were you on campus to witness the anticts of the Princeton Band??? Do you have any idea of what got these Cadets riled up in the first place??? I didn't think so. As far as the 2006 survedy is concerned, you may want to actually consult some Cadets who took it. You may then actually learn something. But I'm sure you have made up your mind allready. Don't let the truth get in the way.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

no i wasnt present but i've seen them perform over 20 times and even while I was playing on the ice, never have they physically hurt anyone. Citadel has many fine young men but they also have a bunch of jerks (lawyers) that we read about in the police blogger, all i'm saying is the way they treat people that are diff. isn't right and def. not southern.

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 8:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Do you actually think the band was just walking on campus. You ARE deranged. "Intelligent civil minds"??? I guess this description helps you with your lame argument. These band members acted neither civil or intelligent while on The Citadel campus.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

please tell me what was said that's so offensive. Did they plant a burning P in the middle of the field, did they burn a flag ? If so , shoot em

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ivy League = Open to new thought and idea's Bill Gates etc..
Citadel= Closed minded, hazzed students (Shannon and Pat O'Conner)

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HighDef-It was not their performance on the football field that was the problem. It was their acts that morning on The Citadel campus (parade field) that caused the problem. These acts were not just "different". They were antagonistic, and vulgar. That is what caused the problem. They went on campus in the middle of the corps field day program to delibrerately provoke a response from the corp. They got a response. I guess they were not used to that. I am sure that they can normally disrespect an entire student body at most campus' they visit, and simply have everyone applaud their progressive attitude.

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way. Shannon never joined the corp of cadets. She never even spent one night in the baracks. And I think you most likely meant Pat Conrad. And to find dout how he feels about The Citadel, read the link below. But by reading your comment, you actually said that the close minded students are Shannon and Pat. You most likely have one of those Ivy League edumacations!

http://www.herritage.com/kilo/conroy.htm...

Posted by NativeSC on September 21, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

High Def=Douchebag - is that close minded enough for you, smart guy?

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Excuse my typo, I meant Pat CONROY.....

Posted by UrGatorbait on September 21, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Uh-oh somebody disrespected that bastion of all male hormones and they did all they know how to do, flex their muscles instead of thinking and taking the high road. Shocked indeedy. Plus they made Burger mad. Boo Hoo.

Oooooo

The school president knew of their antics. Reading is fundamental folks. Did did he warn the cadets? Did he ask the visiting band to try and respect certain traditions and areas of the school?

If he warned the cadets, then I would say the institution has a fundamental problem with leadership and control, if the cadets weren't listening and threating others like thugs. From the account of the first poster, it sounds like they are far from a disciplined group of men who will be put in future positions of leadership.

The maturity level of the cadets is in question. Who cares if a bunch of yahoos, who the president knew was coming, walk around like idiots. Let them be idiots. The knee jerk Pavlovian response to get macho on them is silly. They lack control, not what I looked for in my military leaders. Definitely not a good trait to be missing when deployed.
Critical thinking is missing somewhere. Lack of judgment on the part of the TACs, cadets and the president added to the recipe for trouble. I would expect more from people who are potentially going to be in positions of life or death calls. The lack of judgment is terrible. The reported acts of the cadets lowers them to the level of the antics of the band that bothered them so. I'm glad some cadets apparently had the cool heads to stop the violence.

Just what we need more violence. Protect out turf. Glad to see the pack mentality alive and well here. The Mighty Citadel corps of Kadets fights off 40 people dressed as clowns. Bravo. Evolution going backwards.

Oh yeah never question authority, speaking up might lead to thinking, keeping us out of wars, the current financial crisis or might lead to...shhhhhh...there's that word again...thinking.

The Citadel is an archaic piece of history that showed it's true colors yesterday.

Disgusted southerner.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 21, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wait, wait, wait. Let's all back up a minute here.

Ken, the one thing your article didn't tell us is, what exactly did the Princeton Band DO that was so offensive? You only say that they were "mocking" the Citadel...but don't all schools mock their opponents at athletic games? You say that the Princeton Band "sashayed" on the Citadel campus, but they're a scramble band, not a marching band, so "sashaying" is just how they walk from place to place. I don't get it.

It's a really important detail that you left out of your article, and before I judge the Princeton Band myself, I'd like to know what exactly the issue was. If they were doing something horrible, like harrassing or bullying cadets, or causing property damage, then I'd agree that they deserve to be chastised. But if all they did was walk around and yell school slogans, I don't understand what the fuss was about.

Anyone care to explain?

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Allow me to provide an analogy, since apparently common sense and good manners aren't part of an ivy league education.

If you ever invite someone over to your house for dinner, and, after arriving, they proceed to disrespect you and your house, while under your own roof, making low-brow jokes and snide comments about you, your family, your race, and nationality, and topping it off by urinating in the urn containing your grandmother's ashes, you'll understand how these Princeton fools acted. If you can defend their actions, then you're just as worthless as they are. They got their just desserts and are lucky it wasn't worse.

Alfrente -- since you asked, I'll give you a run down of just that of which I am aware (there could have been more):
Not only did they mock and ridicule the corps of cadets, they also insulted the military and our country. Even worse, they did so from the Avenue of Remembrance -- hallowed ground for The Citadel. It's where the long gray line memorializes those whom have fallen in the service of this country.

After the altercation on campus, members of the band proceeded to instigate confrontations with the corps in the stands while at the game. The cadets that went over to harass the Princeton side were doing so in response to this.

During the performance, things got worse. I can almost guarantee that the speech read by their announcer was NOT the one agreed to by the school. It was blatantly insulting and inflammatory -- an especially poor choice given the already volatile atmosphere. Again, not only the school, but the military and the country were insulted over loudspeakers for all to hear. Also -- for all their self-righteously claimed intellect and civility -- the announcer called women "broads" during his little routine.

Posted by strebel82 on September 21, 2008 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Since when is it ok for Yankees to come down and mock a school's proud heritage, and tradition. Princeton comes to The Citadel, walks onto their campus, their parade field, mocking the cadets and they are suppose to shake their hands and say,”Nice to meet you?” get a grip. They stood up for their school, period. Standing up for your school or your heritage is not shameful. I’m sure it wasn’t just the male cadets involved, last time I checked The Citadel is co-ed. WTG cadets, nice job sending those carpetbagger, scalawag Yankee elitist back home disgraced. So the Princeton band was embarrassed, THEY SHOULD BE! humping in a band show, stabbing santa,mocking school tradition, and those of us with pride are suppose to sit back and watch it happen, say its OK because they are Princeton. I don’t think so. If anyone owes anyone an apology it should be PRINCETON for starting the problems but disrespecting The Citadel, all the cadets did was finish it, and stand up for their school. So they showed pride in their heritage, they were being invaded and they stopped it. It’s what you do when someone invades your turf. So the band was booed, chances are it wasn't just the cadets doing the booing, I’m sure they had lots of help for the alumni in the stands. I will never stand and cheer for vulgarity, nor would I want to explain to my eight year old daughter how it’s just good fun. As for the Citadel cadets encircling the Princeton band, I'm sure they were just helping to escort them out of the stadium, as any good southern gentleman would do to help out a female.
-A Proud Southerner

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think the President of the Citadel and athletic department need to send an apology as well. We should not have allowed these clowns on the campus. What did they expect this "band" to do. They should have done some intelligence on their band. I remember the NCAA prohibited the Stanford band from playing at events for a couple years as a direct result of tasteless pranks and displays. Hopefully the NCAA gets a chance to review the proud Ivy league athletic supporters.

I only hope hope the Princeton "band" travels to another country and try their tactics. See what kind of response they receive. I bet they would never try it again. Nice job Dogs! Good luck the rest of the year.

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a Princetonian who was at the game and someone with many friends who are currently members of Princeton's band, I assure you, Mr. ImplantedYankee, that the half-time show script was the one that Citadel Athletics agreed to let them perform. In fact, the band had submitted a slightly edgier version of the same jokes earlier that week to The Citadel. They asked them to censor/modify them, so they did. What resulted was what you probably strained to hear over the PA system.

Additionally, you claim that the band "mocked & ridiculed" the cadets and "insulted the military and our country" in the morning on campus from the Avenue of Remembrance. Such a thing did not happen. The band simply marched through campus in two lines to a simple drum cadence. In fact, no words were spoken by the band before the cadets became rather physically abusive. If the simple act of setting foot on Citadel's campus is perceived as disrespectful, then so be it, but Citadel Athletics should not have granted the band permission to do a campus walk-through if it was going to be received so negatively. Yes — The Citadel gave the Princeton Band permission to parade through campus.

Even if the band HAD treated the Citadel disrespectfully (which they did not), that does not excuse the cadets of also behaving disrespectfully, which they definitely did.

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 3:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

strebel -- it's never been ok for anyone to do that, yankee or otherwise.

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

armory -- your description of the march is NOT the same as that given by the cadets involved.

Additionally, the school, the military, and the country were ALL mocked and ridiculed during the announcer's routine, which, though straining, I did manage to make out.

The fact that any portion of the weekend's shenanigans were sanctioned by any school official is just proof that the school is suffering from having too many administrators that have no prior ties to The Citadel.

If the athletic director approved the script -- perhaps he thought it would fire up the team in the second half. It did.

Approved or otherwise, the Princeton band shouldn't complain about the consequences of their own remarks.

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For Princetonian - They obviously do not teach common sense at the Ivy League schools - What good do you think comes from marching through a scheduled military event at a military school? You are a fool and need to move back north.

I will await sending my next check to the Citadel until I get a response from the President's office. When they call for my money, I will explain why. I fix some of the blame on my Citadel security and administration for not immediately stopping the "band" from disrupting the cadet activities.

I invite the Princeton Band to try this again on the 23rd of Oct at Camp LeJunene, NC where we will be honoring our fallen classmate and military members killed 25 years ago in the Lebanon barracks bombing. Let's see what kind of response the Marines give them.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 21, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

at_the_armory, your handle indicates you are a current or former member of the Princeton U. Band. Are you surprised a Citadel grad would know the significance of the armory to Princeton's band?

Several eyewitnesses have told me that band did far more than walk through the campus to a drum cadence. Their intent was to provoke, although I'm sure they did not expect the reaction they received. What reason would the band have to march through campus if not to provoke the cadets. If they simply wanted to see the sights, they should have requested a tour. I'm certain the Citadel would have been happy to oblige.

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ImplantedYankee --

While I am somewhat biased as a Princetonian, I like to think I have a certain level of understanding, being born and raised in Richmond, Virginia (for those of you who don't know, the former capital of the Confederacy). I was eye-witness to the morning's events on the Ave of Remembrance, and not a single Princeton Band member said anything to a cadet before the physical abuse and unprompted retaliation began. Perhaps you should look towards the honor and integrity of your local cadets to see where the real problem lies.

All scramble bands rely on satire for their half-time material. While the band made light-hearted jokes about the Citadel and U.S. politics, it also made fun of Princeton, the Ivy League, and the Band itself. If the SC/Citadel crowd wasn't going to have a sense of humor about it, The Citadel should not have approved the show. Both Princeton and The Citadel okayed the script, so the band should not be considered guilty for performing it.

Posted by high_standards on September 21, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is very disappointing to read that the Citadel does not hold itself to higher standards of behavior than the common drunk at a bar. If this is the level of discipline that we Americans can expect of our armed forces, the future is a very, very dark place. In the future, I may be forced to accept as true media reports of soldiers in Iraq murdering civilians in response to being taunted and mocked. Apparently that is not only an entirely plausible situation, but at least some people in the Citadel's extended community would see it as entirely acceptable. Let's hope that West Point, Annapolis, and the AFA are more successful than the Citadel at training disciplined military personnel and leaders.

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 4 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CitadelGrad -- if you know as much as you think you do, then you'd know that Princeton's ROTC program, along with many other student activities, is housed in the Armory (well, it was before the Armory was torn down). I'm really just an eye-witness Princetonian trying to give some balance to a lot of the baseless claims that have been made against the band and the school in this article and the comments.

Many marching bands, not just scramble bands, conduct rallying march-throughs at campuses they visit. It's just part of game day. I attented USC vs. UVA a few weeks ago, and USC's Trojan Marching Band did a march-through performance at Virginia's Grounds. No one really cared. From what I understand, SoCon bands do not do this at The Citadel (I wonder why...), so I guess the cadets aren't used to it.

From what I saw, there was no instigatory behavior on the part of Princeton's marching band.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 21, 2008 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm aware that many student activities were based at the Armory, but I'm fairly certain you were not involved in ROTC. None of that is important, however.

As a former member of the Citadel Band and later a graduate student at a Big Ten University who attended many football games, I can tell you that pre-game march-throughs by visiting bands usually take place in conjunction with alumni association-sponsored events. As far as I know, Princeton alumni gatherings were held around Johnson Hagood and not within the Citadel's gates. What possible reason would the Princeton Band have to march through the Citadel (and through cadets, I'm told), unless it was to provoke a response from the cadets?

Your repeated assertion that the Princeton Band did nothing more than march down the Avenue of Remembrance doesn't hold water. Several witnesses to the confrontation, whom I believe to be impeccable, have stated otherwise.

Posted by clyoushaete on September 21, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Having arrived just before kick-off, I, as apparently were my seat-mates, unaware of any pre-game taunting by either side, so the spectacle at half-time was completely immature. You could not hear what Sam was saying on the speaker so as a spectator, you only heard booing while the band was playing. This type of behavior, is not only disrespectful, but shows a huge lack of class on the corps. If it was a joke, they should have let Princeton make asses out of themselves, the corps didn't have to join them at that level! Or, again, is that the type of leadership they are teaching the new corps?

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 4:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I can't speak to what the band or its members were thinking when they paraded through Citadel's campus. All I can say is what I saw yesterday morning. The Band did not appear to me to be instigatory. They were marching down the Avenue until a great number of cadets blocked every conceivable means of egress for the band. Then the band "scrambled" around the cadets to gain passage, but regrouped back on the other side after a number of band members were physically confronted by cadets and two administrative officers came out.

It should be noted that the officers punished some of the cadets and allowed the band passage.

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Armory....and others, I am a Cid grad and apologize at the events. We do share in the blame as our young men take much pride in our institution. We I a cadet, I assure you that I would have made the same mistake for I hold my campus and uniform in high esteem.

Our school should have not even scheduled such an event with your liberal thinking students and alumni. You all look for opportunities to display your ignorance...and the Citadel could not have given you a better platform.... At least the Citadel should have reviewed the events that your institution sponsors and gotten a clue. I can assure you if I were Gen Rosa, your band would have been warned and not been welcome.

I apologize to the youth that had to witness the results of immature behavior. If you look above, I will be sending The Citadel a letter as they should accept responsibility. Additionally, I will not be sending my next installment to scholarships as a result. I hope they read this...This is event should and could have been avoided.

Career Soldier and Citadel Grad

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadel cadets have a sense of power/accomplishment for nothing. You go to a school where you pretend to be a soldier when you are not. You are phoneys and losers...and probably homosexual. I mean, who chooses to go to a school where its 95% men.

"but i can do 30 pushups in 10 seconds" - cadet.

great, you're a fruit, congrats.

Posted by tigerfan94 on September 21, 2008 at 5:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows
what hatred an vile coming from one person. Obviously you are one that could not handle Knob training and left.As someone with Military experience I would rather have a Citadel cadet leading me,than a Priveledged West Point grad.Citadel Cadets are well prepared for the rigors of the Military,and better prepared in the qualities of being a great leader. They are well respected for the training they recieve while a cadet at The Citadel and are some of our Militarys greatest leaders. Something you apparently have no first had knowledge of. The Citadel defended their turf, their institution, and were right in doing so. Princeton did more than walk through campus, they invaded a parade field where cadet activites were being performed. I have walked the campus of The Citadel many times while wearing a Clemson shirt and have never been ridiculed, or attacked or mocked.but I didnt walk across their parade field while they were having activities either, as a matter of fact, I dont walk across it at all. I am not a Citadel Alum, so I dont walk across their field, I walk around it.Its called RESPECT.Something that is obviously not taught at liberal northern schools.

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For every great Citadel leader you can name, i'll name 30 from West Point. The Citadel is a fraud.

Posted by citadel_cadet on September 21, 2008 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Let me start by saying that I am currently a junior cadet at The Citadel, and was directly involved in the altercations yesterday.

Lat me start with a message to SOSblows:
I would like to thank you for your so eloquently worded comments above. I think that having the disapproval of someone of your caliber is the nicest compliment I have received in a long time. On behalf of the South Carolina Corps of Cadets: I would like to thank you for that. It is obvious that you have not been afforded the privilege of a military experience. Hopefully no one grants you that opportunity because it should be reserved for individuals of higher tier. Please remember your comments when you have to interview with someone like me for your first job out of college.

To everyone else: The Citadel's actions against the Princeton band yesterday were a direct result of their blatant disrespect of OUR school and OUR traditions. Any group of young men and women that come on The Citadel campus, need to know where they are walking. The Citadel has produced some of the greatest officers in the history of the United States Armed forces. As a result, the Campus has been arranged and decorated with constant reminders their services and sacrifices. The "Avenue of Remembrance" that was the scene of Princeton's ATTEMPTED pre-game march through, is held very sacred at The Citadel. The knobs (freshman cadets) are required to walk in the gutters along the Avenue for the duration of their knob year as a sign of respect to the plaques cemented into the ground on the opposite side of the street. The trees that are planted are planted in honor of every armed conflict that The Citadel has lost an officer in. If Princeton had put some of their "intellect" and energy towards learning about the national significance of the place where they were coming, instead of figuring out the different ways in which to dry-hump each other at halftime, maybe they would have thought twice before risking their safety in a blatant disrespect to every member of the Corps.

Thankfully, the unorganized, infant madness that comprised the band was physically stopped before their presence was allowed to further pollute The Citadel campus. The Chapel (which has a plaque listing every member of the Citadel alumni who have died in battle) was only a few hundred yards from where they were stopped. The latest alumni death, occurring within the past few years, was an individual that many current cadets still remember. Excuse me if we thought it okay to protect the solemn grounds that pay respect to our fallen comrades.

Posted by citadel_cadet on September 21, 2008 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lastly, I would like to agree with the several individuals above who stated that there should be communication between the The Citadel's administrative offices and Princeton University. I would like to personally let the band know that the Corps will be anxiously awaiting their return for an encore performance. Just think of the possibilities now that the Corps of Cadets is fully prepared to "deal" with your antics. I can't think of 2200 other men and women who would rather get the chance to meet them again. I do not know when I have been more proud of my institution that yesterday morning.

A proud cadet

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 5:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS you are a coward who hides behind a screen. I challenge you to speak that kind of thing in person to any of my classmates or brothers or sisters in uniform. The next opportunity that I am home will be on 11 Oct for the Elon game, I will wear my uniform for you, so you can find me. I'll stand proudly in front of the Alumni center one hour before the game. I challenge you to remove the flag that I wear proudly on my shoulder. The flag that signifies the freedom that you take for granted. If you are successful in removing the flag, be prepared for what happens next. I would invite you and the Princeton band to my installation, but you all would never be allowed entry.

Never Forget

In the summer of 1982, at the request of the Lebanese government, the United States agreed to establish a U.S. Military presence in that country to serve as a peacekeeping force in the conflict between warring Muslim and Christian factions. On March 24, 1983, the 24th Marine Amphibious Unit, stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, received orders to Beirut, Lebanon in support of that commitment.

Initially, the U.S. Forces, along with French and Italian Forces, provided a measure of stability; however, as diplomatic efforts failed to achieve a basis for a lasting settlement, the Muslim factions came to perceive the Marines as enemies. This led to artillery, mortar, and small arms fires being directed at the Marine Corps positions — with appropriate, measured response being taken against identified targets.

In the early morning of October 23, 1983, the First Battalion, 8th Marines Headquarters building was destroyed by a non-Lebanese, terrorist-driven truck, laden with compressed gas-enhanced explosives. This truck, like many others, had become a familiar sight at the airport and so did not raise any alarm on this morning. The resulting explosion and the collapse of the building killed 241 Marines, Sailors, and Soldiers

Remembering Charles J. Schnorf, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps - ElCid 81 and the 240 others

Posted by UrGatorbait on September 21, 2008 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows..LMAO

When I was active duty, I'd rather be lead by competent staff NCO, prior enlisted officer, major service academy grad, or an ROTC grad. I had a Citadel grad as an officer once. Opinionated, rebellious and gay as a the day is long. He must have been one of the "bad" ones that got through the He-man process. He could think, stand on his own two feet and he despised GWB. Good guy.
The wannabes at the Citadel are too funny. I doubt the Princeton band could get on Camp Lejune and wreck the remembrance. When ya can't deal with them, just stay neanderthal and punch them.

The Citadel president needs to answer for this. elcid your not Gen Rosa and he did let them pass. I guess he's a thinker. That outta make ya think. Damn liberal officers.

Princeton dude, it doesn't matter what you saw, their precious boy cadets don't do a thing wrong. Liberal=thinking, not appreciated here in SC. Thanks for your first hand observations on the event.

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

good job fighting the Princeton band while real soldiers are fighting over seas. You are protecting a flag on your shoulder while real soldiers are protecting our country. keep up the good work.

Posted by parent on September 21, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nothing the Princeton band did, nothing, justifies the hate and lack of tolerance
and judgement displayed by the Citadel student body and their leaders, before
during and after the game. This was an insignificant college football game with
your fellow americans - nothing more, nothing less. The Princeton band
meant no ill will. The Citadel students did themselves and their community
a great disservice by their actions.

Posted by bleed_orange on September 21, 2008 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a Princetonian, one of the things that I find oddest about all of this is the identification of the Band as a "liberal" group. While officially non-partisan, the Band is certainly no more liberal than most campus groups, and has a fairly strong conservative presence. The Band has been identified for the past few years with the most conservative eating club on campus, and I am personally acquainted with a large contingent of Band members and alumni who identify as politically conservative or libertarian.

It's true that the current president of the band has a mohawk. However, a recent drum major identifies with a Randian philosophy, and one Band member was a strong supporter of Condoleeza Rice as an '08 presidential candidate. The Band, like most Princeton groups, is home to a diverse array of views. Given the antagonistic nature of the philosophically inbred Cadets and the polite, nonconfrontational manner of the Band, perhaps there is something to be said for exposure to other opinions.

Posted by Honest_Abe on September 21, 2008 at 6:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What do Princeton and the Citadel have in common?

Princeton was the site of a great American military victory: when General Washington defeated the British.

The Citadel was also the site of a great American military victory: when General Sherman captured the city of Charleston.

Ring the good old bugle, boys.
- Honest Abe

Posted by TigerHawk310 on September 21, 2008 at 6:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't realize that the Citadel was some sort of foreign territory not subject to American law. At least, that's the impression I get from some of these comments. The Citadel's administration invited the band to march around the campus, as the Princeton band does at pretty much every campus at every away game. Having been duly invited onto their campus, the cadets responded with violence, forcefully blocking the Princetonians' path in all directions. They then physically assaulted weaker Princeton students, in one case, breaking a band member's clarinet. In most places in South Carolina, that would be a crime, and "They was disrespectin' me!" isn't a defense.

Then, at the game, the physical assaults continued. The cadets drowned out the band's halftime show (again, approved by Citadel administration), and in the second half, surrounded the Princeton band as they were in the stands doing nothing offensive. The cadets proceeded to threaten band members and steal parts of band members' uniforms. Police intervention was needed.

In all of this, the band did nothing more than march (well, saunter) and play its instruments. Perhaps its halftime show mocked the South; they mock everyone. The important point is that the Citadel cadets met harmless words with criminal violence. Is that the "military spirit" the Citadel is supposed to teach?

Violence against people for mere "disrespect" isn't what an honorable soldier does. It's what a barbarian does. Fortunately, it seems the Citadel administration understands the difference, even if their students need some lessons.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 6:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

so the only eye witness says they didn't march through the sacred field, huh. They were confronted by a wild pack of dawgs pissing on their territory...real men.

Cadet- you really think the lowest Princeton grad would be applying for a job under you...come on, really.
Lets face it , you go to a military school you have to pay for ! You get hazed and have to be in bed on time or you do push ups, now that's an edumication I wouldn't pay for.

Posted by Marie123 on September 21, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a member of the Princeton University Band, I'd like to personally thank citadel_cadet:

While we were aware on Saturday afternoon at the game that we had enraged the vast majority of the Citadel, none of us were aware of what, exactly we had done to incite this anger.

We had formal contact with the administration, who had invited us to perform at the game, vetted our show, and invited us to march on their campus. We were NOT aware of the Saturday field day activities until the altercation, nor were we aware of the special significance of the Avenue of Remembrance. Had we known, I'm sure we would have walked somewhere else- we thought it was just a normal thoroughfare, and no one informed us otherwise.

Of course, I can't speak to the behavior of every member of the band, but from where I was standing, I didn't hear anyone trying to mock or bait the cadets we encountered. We avoided the field specifically, assuming that that was what the cadets were concerned about us marching across, though I assume during the chaotic near-brawl that occurred later, it is possible that some of us scrambled in that direction.

So, thank you for explaining what we did to offend - While I disagree that the cadets' response was appropriate, none of us meant any offense to our military, our country, or the Citadel, and I'm sorry if our actions were taken as such.

Posted by Riverside on September 21, 2008 at 6:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm proud of the cadets and the way they defended their pride and turf. Princeton got what they deserved.

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

i apologize to Princeton, The Citadel in no way represents the people of Charleston or the state of South Carolina. The school, their alumni and students are stuck somewhere between the Civil War and reality and refuse to see that their practice are as outdated as fanny packs.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 21, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bleed_orange, your statement that Citadel cadets are philosophically inbred could lead one to believe that you are as ignorant as those who regard all Princetonians as liberals or commie-lib pinkos. Sweeping generalizations are typically a sign of under-developed intellect and/or bigotry. While it is true that military institutions are often more conservative, you will find a very wide spectrum of political and religious views at the Citadel. As a Libertarian and agnostic, I never felt out of place at the Citadel and certainly never saw any attempt to quash the freely expressed opinions of any cadet or faculty member. I wish I could say the same of my days as a graduate student at a putatively tolerant Big Ten university.

To Marie123, thank you for presenting your view of the incident in a public forum. As far as I know, you are the first and only member of the Princeton Band to do so. A similar statement from your band's president might be helpful. There is no question that any damage to persons or property should be regarded as criminal matter and dealt with appropriately. However, every other account I have read indicates that at least some members of the Princeton Band did act provocatively and with the purpose of eliciting a reaction from the cadets. These accounts have come from cadets, Citadel alumni and members of the media.

Posted by k4christ01 on September 21, 2008 at 8:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I did not see what happened on the campus earlier Saturday, but I was at the game. I found the display by the Princeton band at half time to be offensive and inappropriate, especially for the children who were attending the game.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 21, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks all for the clarification. I think I see what happened here.

Citadel students are trained to defend their turf. When they're in large groups, especially, that turf-defending mantra really resonates (as it has on this message board from several Citadel cadets and alumni). So when the Princeton Band marched across their campus--as it does across the campus of every school they play, and as it did with permission from Citadel admins, and as many college marching bands do before Saturday morning games--the cadets spotted an opportunity to defend their turf. The problem was, they were "defending" it from a threat that didn't exist.

The Princeton Band wasn't there to desecrate anything sacred, but the cadets didn't know that. The Band was going to march (saunter, sashay, whatever) across campus, play a few fight songs, and the usual stuff that bands do. But the hair-trigger cadets blocked their path, thinking it was necessary to protect against the orange-and-black "invasion."

When the Princeton Band tried to run around or through the cadets, again, the cadets didn't know that the Band was just trying to dodge them. They thought it was an assault of some kind, and they responded with the force they were eager to use. This meant, from what I've heard, breaking one Band member's instrument, throwing another into a tree, and trying to steal uniform pieces from several of them.

This is how misunderstandings start. So let's all calm down and realize a few things:

1.) The Princeton Band did NOT march on the Citadel campus with the intention of dishonoring fallen soldiers.

2.) Taunting is a natural part of football and, as long as it remains non-threatening, isn't a problem.

3.) Taunting ceased to be non-threatening when several of the cadets really did threaten Princeton Band members and several of them acted on these threats.

4.) This issue isn't just about liberals versus conservatives or cadets versus people who don't appreciate their sacrifices. It's primarily an issue of bullies versus...well, I hate the word "nerds," so I'll say "academics." You put the polar opposite of Citadel cadets on their campus--the Princeton Band--and suddenly people desperate for an "other" to attack get their perfect target. I've never had any sympathy for bullies.

I'm sure there are good people at the Citadel, lots of them. But let's not mince words. The cadets who attacked the Princeton Band physically crossed the line from name-calling to physical, criminal violence. They're lucky their victims have chosen not to press charges and that the only punishment they're getting is from the school.

I hope the cadets who attacked the Band learn a lot about responsibility before anyone gives them guns.

Posted by wildcat22 on September 21, 2008 at 9:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It seems to me that The Citadel is very proud. I also see that Princeton likes to do what they do best, and mach. Every band is different in their own unique way. Some like to have sticks up their asses and others like to lubricate their sticks and put them to better use. If matters were handled a little differently, (not physically) I'm sure the Princeton Band would have removed themselves from the sacred holy ground you hold in the South. It seems as if this whole situation could have been avoided.

As for the half time show:
-Scatter Bands everywhere do shows like that. It's not to offend anyone. As long as the people on the field are having a good time, that's all that really matters.

Posted by Mankee on September 21, 2008 at 10:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My this sort of thing can bring out the worst and best in people; especially with blogging! I have a son at the Citadel and have had many family members attend ivy league schools (though not specifically Princeton). I understand the tendencies of both kinds of schools, but most importantly it should be made clear that all kinds of people attend all kinds of schools. Some things got out of hand this weekend and some people behaved badly. Some people lost sense of what was tasteful and others became hot headed about it. Get over it! This age group (traditional college age) tends to get hot headed about just about anything. It's part of the imaturity of the age. Everything's in black and white; no real grey area. (and we all know life is FULL of grey areas) If everyone had just been a little more mature and taken a deep breath before speaking or acting out, then things might not have gotten out of hand.
But the same can be said of some of the people in this blog! Lighten up! Stuff happens! Don't get so "I'm right - you're wrong" about it. Unless you were there you have no real idea, and even if you were there you probably only saw a small portion of what was going on. Everyone is to blame and I hope a lesson or two was learned; by both parties. Keep your personal feelings about the military and the liberals to yourselves. There's no room in this for such anger and hateful words. You're taking this too far. Thank God you're not sitting in front of each other!
I've never seen a "Scatter Band" but I can't imagine a half-time show for all ages that includes humping each other and stabbing a Santa. Sounds pretty R rated to me, but then again I haven't experienced this before.
Yes, the Citadel cadets tend to be a proud group. But that's the way it is on every military campus I've ever visited. And most people are aware of this and glean from it what they appreciate and forget the rest. It's what it is. Coming from the Midwest (Mankee=Midwest Yankee), I read with some amusement the comments made from Southerners and North Easterners. I'd say both sides suffer from a slightly inflated sense of worth and need to relax a little. Let's learn from it and quit getting your panties all in a bunch!

Posted by methylorangeowl on September 21, 2008 at 10:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a former member of a scatter band, I can understand completely what happened, from both perspectives.

Scatter bands make their reputations by poking fun at the "sacred cows" of their opponents. However, every school has some sacred institutions and traditions that are too important to make fun of. Military schools have more than most. Despite authorization from the athletic department, Princeton should have known that ANY actions on their part, intentional or not, could be met with offense. That's true of any show at any school, and particularly true here.

However, it is never acceptable to take anger at an institution or organization out on an individual. The booing over the Princeton show (while rude) was warranted. The cadets didn't like the show or the band, so they booed. Harassing a member of the band on her way to the restroom is inappropriate. That member of the Princeton band is only a college student, just like the cadet is. She did not write the show herself, and is not personally responsible for the insult done.

I understand that it's impossible to prevent angry fans from clashing in the stands. Princeton should have done more research on the campus and paraded somewhere that was not hallowed ground. But at the same time, I know how it feels to be vastly outnumbered in a very hostile situation, and afraid you might get injured at a football game.

And that's what it boils down to-- this was a football game. Princeton should apologize for a show and parade in questionable taste, and the Citadel should apologize for treating the band with such aggression. As an organizational conflict, not a personal one, the insult should be handled at an organizational level between the Citadel Athletics Department and the Princeton Band administration.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 21, 2008 at 10:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with almost everything you said, methylorangeowl, especially the fact that it's just a football game and everyone needs to chill.

The only thing I disagree with regards Princeton's apology. The thing is, the Princeton Band submitted their show in its entirety to the administration at the Citadel, and it was approved. So if it was indeed inappropriate, the onus is on the administrators at the Citadel, not on the Princeton Band.

Evidently the Citadel administrators misjudged the Band's impact--and I don't blame them. No one expected this kind of behavior in response to something as inconsequential as forty people dressed in plaid playing instruments. But why should the Princeton Band apologize for the Citadel administrators' misjudgment?

(I do agree that the Band should apologize for not having known that they tread on sacred ground. In their defense, not one of them had set foot on campus prior to that morning, but they could have indeed done more research. This, however, is a teeny apology compared to the one the cadets owe the Band for physical attacks, destruction of property, and harrassment. The Band's transgression was an accident, and throwing a guy into a tree could not have been.)

Posted by magoo on September 21, 2008 at 11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Citadel Admin should have explained the rules to this band as to what is or isnt allowed on the sacred campus, but look on the bright side at least the band walked in the gutters on the AVE of Rememberance like the knobs do . Anyway it was a great performance by the Great Princeton Band and would have been greater if the loud mouthed wannebe soldiers of the future(Citadel Cadets) would have shown respect to the band while they performed at half time.The Cadets must not have gotton their naps Sat aternoon or milk or cookies after their naps and were just tired.Thats why the acted the way the did.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

turns out the angry mob that followed the female band member was just trying to court the young lady...southern hospitality I guess ! Come on people, it is black and white here. This routine is performed everywhere else but b/c the Citadel is a military institution you can't march and sing. Are the memorials they march in front of up north less meaningfull ? This story is silly but expected from Ken Burgar, he could have written about the evil euro's pumping their fist's in our backyard during the Ryder Cup.

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 11:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For those of you who still insist that the band members did nothing wrong, consider this:

In nearly the two decades I've been watching Citadel sporting events, The Citadel has hosted many teams. Each year there are several involving bitter rivalries, including College of Charleston (not football, however), Furman, and especially VMI. Many times I have observed the visiting school's band play. When Citadel hosted VMI, not only did their band perform, but their entire corps of cadets was hosted as guests in the barracks. At no time did any of these teams encounter the same treatment. What do you suppose was the difference?

The insults against the school, the military, this country, and even women, came in loud and clear over the PA system during the routine despite the corps' best efforts to drown it out.

As for those uninvolved who just used this as an opportunity to express that chip on your shoulder regarding The Citadel, none of your remarks merit an individual response. In my experience, those who speak ill of the ring invariably possess two distinct traits: one they don't understand it, and two, they don't have what it takes to earn one. Their shortcomings in mind, body, or constitution (often a combination of the three) will forever separate them from those who have endured, and it's not a gulf that can be bridged by understanding.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 22, 2008 at 12:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay, but none of the schools you mention--Charleston, Furman, or VMI--have scramble bands. They have marching bands. It's a completely different thing. You guys probably hadn't seen a scramble band before. (Before I went to college, neither had I.) Scramble bands are a little weird to get used to, and I think we can all agree that the cadets couldn't get used to a scramble band in one afternoon.

Put simply: They saw something new and different when they expected something else. And they didn't like it.

Just because the Princeton Band did something DIFFERENT doesn't mean they did something WRONG.

Posted by scar988 on September 22, 2008 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a junior cadet at the Citadel, who was near the band when they attacked, they did not just charge at us. They were swinging their instruments trying to attack us, this is BS about them dodging us. We defended ourselves. One of them had my classmate in a headlock and I punched him in the face. Am I proud of that? not really. but they need to not try and attack people. I thought people from Princeton were smarter than that. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that no one marches on a military school campus except for cadets from that school, invited groups, and the actual military. But when they come in, mock us on the avenue, and then charge at us swinging their instruments, how else are we supposed to respond. We were just protecting ourselves, especially since they were the ones who provoked us and attacked us. If anything, the Alpha knob who destroyed the clarinet deserves a medal, and the band deserved everything it got, especially that little girl crying over being harrassed. I thought that band would have a much thicker skin if they were known for doing stupid things like that.

Posted by scar988 on September 22, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To marie,
It's cool, we just don't like having instruments swung at us. We also were never warned by the administration anything was happening. had our admin actually told us something, we would have been a bit more cordial, but they didn't. So we took offense to the entire situation, because no one even thinks that we take pride in our entire campus, the fact is you wre going down "The avenue of rememberance." Which is the one place on campus we hold more sacred than the parade deck or the barracks. Then again, our administration doesn't have the best communications with everyone. Let's just say that neither side wants to be attacked, and the fact of the matter is y'all swung instruments at us.

Posted by Aco on September 22, 2008 at 9:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As for being there, and for seeing what happened because i was in the front, I cant Tell you, that the Band tried to go onto the parade deck, where the whole corps was. When they could go down that way, they went down the Avenue of Remembrance, might be the most sacred place on campus. We formed a wall, that was it. They scrambled towards us and we defended ourselves accordingly, as for we don't like clarinets being swung in our faces. When people come onto the campus that pretty much started the civil war, with a confederate flag crossed out, thats sparks something. No doubt both sides are to blame. Before you go pointing fingers listen to the people who were there.

Posted by saltersf1 on September 22, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

All this blame game bs needs to stop. Both parties are as equally responsible and both should be embarrassed. For two well respected educational institutions to act so immaturely is ridiculous. All of you that keep encouraging or defending either party are just as immature. Saturday was just plane embarrassing. As a Citadel grad I understand the significance the Avenue of Remembrance. It is a special location on campus, hell most of the campus has some sort of historical significance. The band should have NEVER marched onto that part of campus especially during the middle field day. It was most defiantly a disrespectful act, but a fight should have never ensued. Princeton band members crossed the line, but the corps should act like gentlemen no matter what the circumstances. I am a big Citadel football supporter, there are always other tasteful ways to get pumped up and still enjoy the game. I know that at first glance it was a funny hurrah story and a reason for some of us to think "way to go boys for defending our turf", but ultimately it makes others perceive the corps as a bunch of meathead uncontrollable hoodlums. I know that they are not. There can be bad egg in every bunch. I hope Cadets continue to actively support the football teams success just without all the booing and violent behavior. Let the football team shut them up. Go Dogs.

Posted by littleone on September 22, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I cannot believe how everyone is standing on their little soap box and acting like they would never ever get caught up in something so immature. I'm sure you all have the morals and ethics and self-control of the Pope.

Screw that. I am the wife of a Citadel grad, and I can assure you that the Citadel campus is the safest place to be in Charleston. There is not another place in that city where you can walk down the sidewalk and feel that safe and protected. Those cadets knew they could get in big trouble for causing a scene on campus or at the football game, but they still felt it was more important to defend who they are.

Everyone likes to give The Citadel and it's cadets a hard time, saying they are out-dated and immature, blah blah blah. My opinion??? If you didn't go there, you don't get to judge. You have no clue what goes on there--NONE. If a Citadel grad wants to write on here and say the cadets were wrong and should have done things differently, that grad has the right to because he or she has been in those shoes! Even I don't feel I can say anything and I was there almost every weekend for 4 years, and I saw first hand what my husband and his friends went through. But I still didn't eat, sleep, and breathe there everyday so I am keeping my mouth SHUT.

So don't freaking act like you would have done something different, because you don't know! They weren't just defending their campus--people give them crap every single day just for choosing to go to The Citadel. Yankees, C of C frat boys, and every drunk driving down King St. who sees a uniform feels like it's their God-given right to tell those cadets what they think about them and their school. And for what?? Because you've met one cadet one time and they were kind of a jerk?? Maybe it's cause they haven't slept in four years you idiot. Saying every cadet is either macho or gay is like saying that every person that goes to Clemson is a dumb redneck farmer. It's no wonder they finally snapped and decided to do something about it.

So screw you Princeton, you are lucky you got out of Charleston with all your teeth still in your head.

Posted by Tulane75 on September 22, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This controversy concerns me for a number of reasons. Campus police aside, do the cadets or any other group have police powers on the Citadel campus?

My understanding is that:
1-This is not a military base, where upon entering, you are subject to search
2- The public may come onto campus at any time, with the exception of certain night hours when the campus is closed.

I have been going onto the Citadel campus for longer than I can remember, primarily for weddings, funerals sporting events or nothing in particular. I don't know which is the Avenue of Rememberance, but I have pretty much walked wherever necessary to get to my destination on the straightest line.

Once again, campus police aside, would I have to do something (or not) upon instruction from a cadet? Back to the question above, what special powers to enforce the law, or in this case defend the old south and Citadel traditions, do the cadets have? For example, what if an individual came on campus wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt. Would that be illegal on the Citadel campus even though it it legal at Hampton Park? Of course it would be legal, but what special powers to the cadets have to deal with this person to whose clothing they may object?

Here you have a Princeton Band with permission to come on campus. Was it something they said? something they played? Who gets to decide what is "offensive" on the Citadel campus? The campus police deal with the law, but who deals with things that are LEGAL, but contrary to the tastes or opinions of the cadet corp? It sound to me like a recipe for exactly what happened this past weekend.

Posted by littleone on September 22, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If a cadet on guard told you that a road was closed, or a sidewalk was being used for something and you couldn't use it then it's my understanding that you have to follow those rules. If you don't want to, the cadet can't physically restrain you but you will be approached by either a campus police officer or an officer. The companies on guard are essentially an extension of the administration.

I have never never ever ever heard of someone being told they can't go somewhere or do something, with the exception of roads being closed for Parents Weekend and Homecoming, and that was simply because of the parking lots being full and people were walking in the roads. I think The Citadel has always expected a high standard of behavior for it's guest, and most guests use common sense. The cadets have always been on their best behavior when out and about on campus--I would assume that most of the ugly stuff goes on in the barracks.

Even though what the band did wasn't illegal, it was obviously stupid. Can you blame a bunch of college students for getting caught up in something? Like fights have never broken out at football games before, like benches have never been cleared in baseball and basketball games? It's not right, but it happened, and it doesn't look like anyone was planning on it turning into a fight except for Princeton.

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadel is the safest place in charleston???? You must not be taking the very high number of sexual assualts on female cadets into consideration. Although thats not surprising since The Citadel has never consider females as equals. The Citadel is full of young men with attitudes who have a sense of power because they go to a pretend military school.

West Point = Real military school
Citadel = Fake military school

Posted by HighDef on September 22, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

thrusting clarinets,crossed out confederate flag and band members zig zagging around the blockade...eww wee crazy.

One Cadet says the girl got what she deserved...wow well said son ! Sounds like you've had to use that defense before.
LITTLEONE-When I was confronted by this band i kept my mouth shut and went out and beat their asses on the scoreboard (like the real cadets did) and laughed later, it's what real men do !

Posted by PUFootBaller on September 22, 2008 at 1:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Princeton athletes have always been ashamed of the band and dearly wish they would not attend sporting events. They should save their antics for alumni events if they believe Princetonians actually enjoy their "show."

Even though the majority of the country disagrees with Bush's Iraq fiasco, most of us certainly support our troops and the sacrifices of those young men and women in uniform, and those currently training to serve. We simply want our troops brought home safely from Iraq, or redeployed to Afganistan where the real fight is. Hopefully President Obama will be able to make this a reality and ensure the $2 trillion dollars the Iraq fiasco will ultimately cost the American taxpayers can be of some benefit to future generations.

As a Princetonian I would like to apologize to the members of the Citadel community for what I can assume (based on past experience) were the insensitive and offensive actions of the Princeton band. Most Princetonians are as offended by the band as those attending the Citadel game must have been, and to denigrate a sacred memorial walk is inexcusable.

Posted by Riverside on September 22, 2008 at 1:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS, why don't you go there for 4 years and then find out how "fake" it is? THEN, you can give your opinion on if it is, or is not, a real military school.

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Straight from The Citadel webpage:

"While Citadel Cadets are not obligated to enter the military, about a third of each graduating class accepts a military commission"

Question: If The Citadel is a real military school (like West Point), why are the students not required to enter service?

I have no problem with what The Citadel does as a school, but stop calling it a military school. I find that very disrepectful to actual soldiers who fight for our country.

Posted by saltersf1 on September 22, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS.. West Point, the Naval Academy, and all the service academies have the cadets "play soldier" while they get an education in a military environment. When they graduate they are pinned as 2nd Lieutenant officers or an equivalent rank depending which service they go in to. It is at that point that things become "real". The Citadel has the same model 4 class system as any other service academy. The main difference between the academies and the Citadel is that the Citadel is not a federal academy, its a state school. So not all of its graduates are required to go in the military, even though every Citadel Graduate is given the choice to take a commission or not. The officers that do graduate from the Citadel are just as qualified and choose to bleed the same blood/sacrifice for our country so save me this "fake" bs. The Citadel graduates who have CHOSEN to go in to the military are known to be the best of the best. So before you go barking up a tree you know nothing about realize that there are many great Americans who are servicing our country that have graduated from great institutions like West Point, The Naval Academy, The Air Force Academy, and even the Citadel, VMI, Norwich, Texas A&M, etc. SOS you honestly have no idea what you are talking about!

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Apparently i'm not making my point clear enough. Here is a fact straight off West Point's webpage:

"Upon graduation, cadets are awarded Bachelor of Science degrees and commissions in the U.S. Army. They serve on active duty for a minimum of five years."

Read that last sentence as many times as you need to.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 22, 2008 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows, I'm a Citadel graduate and served on active duty for 7 years, including Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Am I a pretend soldier?

Posted by saltersf1 on September 22, 2008 at 3:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Any individual that accepts a commission is required to serve active duty, the time served has no bearing on what college you graduated from. So like I said before you still have no idea what you are talking about. Do you have anymore brainbusters num-nuts?

Posted by scar988 on September 22, 2008 at 3:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS, there are very few sexual assaults on campus that are actually sexual assaults. And we don't have to take a commision to be considered a real military school. the fact of the matter is only 2 things make up a military school:
A) a Corps of cadets
B) the OPTION to commission

and HighDef,
you're saying that Princeton Zig-Zaged arounds? you weren't there! They charged right at us and attempted to attack us. so you sir, are an ignorant tool who thinks he knows everything, but as an actual cadet, who was on the front line of this "encounter" they attacked us. and we defended our brothers.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 22, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

scar988, perhaps if you hadn't surrounded them and threatened them with violence, they wouldn't have needed to "attack" you. What would you have done if you were one of 40 who was surrounded by a few hundred?

I don't want to read anymore of this nonsense about how they were desecrating the Avenue of Remembrance. They were not aware of the significance of it and they had explicit permission from the Citadel to do what they were doing.

As for any taunts that they may have directed toward the cadets -- Big Deal. Get over it. I have seen cadets many times mercilessly taunt others with no expectation that it would result in a violent confrontation.

If you cadets were so offended by the Princeton Band's march-through and if they were acting so aggressively toward you cadets, why didn't any of the cadet leadership approach the Princeton Band to diffuse the situation or give them some cautionary advice? That is what leaders do, right? The Citadel is a leadership laboratory, right?

I am in no way condoning the actions of the Princeton Band, but the cadets should have taken the higher road. If you can't exercise self-control or deal with problems rationally, why the hell are you at the Citadel? If you want to be a dumbass redneck thug, go to Georgia Southern. We don't need you among the ranks of Citadel alumni and we sure as hell don't need you in the Armed Forces of the United States.

The truth is that there is plenty of blame to go around for this incident. The point is, I do not ever want to see the Citadel to be in a position to accept blame. I want the Citadel to be above reproach. If you aren't willing to accept that responsibility, then please leave my alma mater now.

Posted by mrcitadel2008 on September 22, 2008 at 3:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You let one fat, opinionated, rebellious female into our school and everything goes to hell. I too will not be making any fiduciary contributions to the Citadel, but it is not because of the behavior exhibited by the Cadets this weekend.

You can call me ignorant, but that doesn't change the way I feel about my school or my classmates. If it's humor that the Princeton band was looking for I invite them to go see a comedy show. But This is the Citadel, we produce soldiers, not comedians. To believe that the result of what transpired Saturday would have been any different is to imagine a world much different than the one we live in. To all of you saying Princeton's Band of Ivy League misfits did not deserve such treatment I say "Grow a pair".

I will become highly upset with my institution if I learn ANY Cadets were reprimanded for their defensive behavior. Keep fighting Dogs! If you don't who will? Certainly not the Princeton Band. If I were Rosa, I would mail a check to the Princeton Band for the cost of the broken butt trumpet that the 18 year old Freshman took away from that grown man and broke over his leg. To me that would be money well spent defending what few traditions and honor we have left. I would be sure to wipe my rear-end with it first though.

In conclusion its actually a lot more simple than any Honors Calculus formula that a Princeton student had to learn during their tenure their. If you play with fire you get burned, especially my fire that has been burning for 163 years.

And You, Sosblows. Why don't you take a stroll through campus today holding up a sign with your clever pen-name and selections from your comment sections on this piece. I doubt highly that one of those "fake" Military students will allow you to get halfway across the parade deck before you are "corrected". I would love to sit down with a few of you on here and have a civilized debate on who was right and wrong here, but as for SOSblows, I think you should get your facts straight before you come sit at my table. I will make you look extremely ignorant if you have not done your homework.
It's sad you don't have pride in anything like we do. Just another product of a sheltered, politically correct childhood is my guess. Leave the fighting for the real men and go comment on something you know something about you elitist sympathizing pie.

The Citadel, "The Last of the Knights"-Ronald Reagan

Posted by blueline on September 22, 2008 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am unsure why my fellow alumni of The Citadel would deign to discuss this issue with a bunch of people on a newspaper message board.

Posted by jwebster80 on September 22, 2008 at 3:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Three huge cheers for The Citadel!

How in the world did that band think they would get away with going BEHIND those gates and mocking those cadets?

Talk to anyone in the Southern Conference and ask if they ever felt disprected by the school or their cadets?...the answer would be no.

Perfect example of N.E. liberal elites acting out exactly who they are.

I am glad however no one got punched, though whoever was response for bringing the band on campus DURING organized cadet physical activities and mimicking them should have to put that on the Ivy League resume'.

Let's see how Citadel cadets and alum behave at the game in NJ next year,...or,...has PU already cancelled and called their lawyers.

Man, more "flyover" politics,...except in the heavily patriotic south.

CITADEL 34, P.U. 24......good job bulldogs

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 4:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadelgrad - But you CHOOSE to serve, the Citadel did not require you to serve. The Army requires a tour of duty. Anyone that serves is a real soldier, has 100% of my respect and is a better person than me.

saltersf1 - You made my point for me. Citadel cadets have the option to serve, which many of them don't. Army cadets don't have that option. Thats what makes West Point legit.

You guys are trying to convince yourselves that you're part of the United States Military, which you are not.

Keep fighting Ivy League bands tough guys.

Posted by ElCid09 on September 22, 2008 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 11:20 a.m.

"Citadel is the safest place in charleston???? You must not be taking the very high number of sexual assualts on female cadets into consideration."

However, most of the assaults on female cadets occur off-campus and include alcohol (not that that is any kind of excuse). Not to mention that it isn't only female cadets who are sexually assaulted. Also, take a good look at the numbers from that survey and take a look at the national average for sexual assaults on or off campus; our numbers are lower.

I am a cadet who was at the Field Day but was on the other side of the field and chose not to join in the rushing of the band. From where I was, I couldn't see what the band was actually doing except that they had marched onto campus and were moving up the Avenue. I do know that once the band re-grouped, the Tac officers escorted the band off campus. However, I am extremely embarassed by the corps' reaction to the band at half-time. That they wouldn't even give the band a chance and began booing before they even took the field was immature. A large problem is that Citadel cadets generally don't know how marching bands work; the only cadets who were in band in high school are in band now and most of the cadets don't respect the band. Even had Gen Rosa warned us that the Princeton band would be marching on our campus and acting out on the field, I'm not sure it would have changed anything because most of the cadets wouldn't have understood any of it anyway.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 22, 2008 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows, West Point cadets have the option of leaving West Point any time prior to the first day of classes during their junior year without incurring a military service obligation. Citadel cadets must sign a military contract at the beginning of their junior year if they wish to be commissioned. Those that do not sign may continue their Citadel education and graduate at the end of 4 years, but must continue enrollment in ROTC classes until they graduate.

The Citadel, like VMI and a handful of other schools is classified by the Department of Defense as an Essential Military College. We must meet certain criteria identified by the Department of Defense to maintain that designation. The Citadel is not a military college because we say it is. It is a military college because the Department of Defense says it is.

While the Citadel and VMI are not federal service academies, we are military schools that must meet the standards of a military college as defined by the Department of Defense.

You really do need to get your facts straight.

Posted by Marianne0558 on September 22, 2008 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm wondering the same thing, blueline.
Don't you have better and more noble things to do?

By the way, I see the lot of you jogging up and down Brittlebank park every day. Thank you for giving me something nice to look at while I take my breaks!!!!!

Posted by CitadelMan on September 22, 2008 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm a junior cadet at The Citadel and was present, though not physically involved in Saturday’s incident. With all the trash being slung on both sides I felt like I had to offer my $0.02. There’s been enough said about the incident, so I’ll just say that students with an average SAT score of 1500+ should’ve had more brains than to “march” onto campus in the manner they did. I’m just going to stand up for my school in the face of slander by a certain ignorant individual…

In case you didn't notice, we are The Citadel, the MILITARY College of South Carolina (and yes, I'll be taking a commission next May). The reason we aren't required to enter the military is because we are not a federal academy. If need be, every one of us could be called up as South Carolina Militia. Regardless of the fact that it would likely never happen, the obligation is there. I've spent the last two years of my life, going on three, living a Spartan lifestyle that I doubt you could handle. The nine months of my knob year I guarantee were harder than anything you've ever done in your life. You talk a lot as if you understand what goes on here, but honestly you're not fooling anyone. You can try and slander us with accusations of rampant homosexuality and abuse but then again, you've never spent a single night behind the gates, so you have no credibility. And FYI: reading a news release that's as false as the garbage that's come out of your mouth does not make you an expert.

Before you try and say that my institution has served the United States with any less dedication than West Point, I'll leave you with this. I've heard Echo Taps played four times during my time as a cadet. I doubt you know what that is, but go ahead and look it up- maybe you'll find some respect along with it. The last thing I've heard West Point and Service used in the same sentence was when a USMA alum who was recruited into the NFL was whining over being called up to active duty in lieu of playing football because his nation needed him. A lot of commitment they instill up there... Not to mention, most academy grads do their four years and get out. All the flag officers I've ever met have been ROTC grads. Speaking of flag officers, we've produced 129.

So kindly shut your mouth and leave us to our business of forging boys into men who will either end up fighting for you, or be your boss someday. Because quite frankly, we’re rather good at it.

-Citadel Class of 2010

Posted by Marianne0558 on September 22, 2008 at 4:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

...You all got me looking forward to the scenic views tomorrow! Thanks!!!!!!! hahahahaha

Posted by mrcitadel2008 on September 22, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CitadelMan,
Well said my friend...I look forward to you joining the Long Gray Line next year. They have no idea what they are talking about

Shame on the Princeton band

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