Americans religious, not rigid, study findsBy Adam Parker (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Tuesday, June 24, 2008
Read the full report or view interactive maps and other resources. www.pewforum.org. More people believe in heaven than in hell. Most say there is more than one path to salvation. The majority of Americans apply practical experience and common sense more than religious teachings to determine right and wrong. And most say it is possible to have a personal relationship with God. These are some of the findings of a new report on religion in America published Monday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. The results show that most Americans, while religious, are not dogmatic about their faith. Seven in 10 say many traditions can lead to eternal life. Nearly the same number, 68 percent, say there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of one's religion, though most think the sacred texts are the word of God, not men. "This report illustrates, chapter and verse, the amazing diversity and dynamism both between and within religious traditions in America," said John Green, senior fellow at the Pew Forum. "And this diversity of affiliation, belief and practice matters when it comes to social and political questions." The survey found that South Carolinians generally are more religious than the average American. Nationally, those who say their belief in God is "absolutely certain" constitute 71 percent of those polled. In South Carolina, 86 percent are sure of their belief in God. Seven in 10 South Carolinians say their faith is "very important" in their lives, while 56 percent say this nationwide. And residents of the state attend services and pray more frequently than most Americans. Mississippi is the country's most religious state, the survey found. There, 91 percent are absolutely certain about the existence of God, 77 percent pray at least once a day and 60 percent attend services at least once a week. The new report is the latest installment in a three-part survey that questioned more than 35,000 people across the country. Part one found that the ranks of the unaffiliated are on the rise (now at 16 percent) while membership in Catholic and mainline Protestant denominations is in decline. The results concerning religious beliefs and practices, however, indicate that while more Americans consider themselves unaffiliated with specific traditions or denominations, they are overwhelmingly committed to the ideas of God, life after death and the importance of Scripture. More women than men tend to consider their faith very important in their lives. Women pray more than men. At 96 percent, Mormons are the strongest believers in miracles, followed by evangelical Protestants and members of historically black churches (88 percent). On average, eight in 10 Americans believe in miracles; 68 percent believe in angels and demons (95 percent of Jehovah's Witnesses do). People who attend religious services often tend to be conservative politically, according to the study. Mormons are among the most conservative politically; Jews, Buddhists and Hindus are most likely to call themselves liberal. The study distinguished between prayer and meditation, finding that 75 percent of Americans pray at least once per week while 39 percent meditate at least once per week. Pew Forum Director Luis Lugo said there is a lot of variety within faith traditions, however, and this could account for the predominantly tolerant attitudes of the faithful. "The fact that most Americans are not exclusive or dogmatic about their religion is a fascinating finding," he said. "Most people will be surprised that a majority of adherents in nearly all religious traditions, including a majority of evangelical Protestants, say that there isn't just one way to salvation or to interpret the teachings of their own faith." The diversity within and between religious denominations in the U.S. mirrors the cultural diversity found in the population, Green said. "The average American is likely to run into somebody on a daily basis with a faith different than one's own," he said. Reach Adam Parker at 937-5902 or aparker@post andcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 89 comment(s)
Posted by Thomas1776 on June 24, 2008 at 1:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
James Dobson, accuses the likely Democratic presidential nominee of distorting the Bible and pushing a "fruitcake interpretation" of the Constitution.
Dobson and Minnery accused Obama of wrongly equating Old Testament texts and dietary codes that no longer apply to Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament.
"I think he’s deliberately distorting the traditional understanding of the Bible to fit his own worldview, his own confused theology," Dobson said.
"... He is dragging biblical understanding through the gutter."
"Even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools?" Obama said. "Would we go with James Dobson’s or Al Sharpton’s?" referring to the civil rights leader.
Posted by DannyHaszard on June 24, 2008 at 2:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Jehovahs Witnesses and freedom of speech.
They will extol and preach *God's Kingdom* and this sounds attractive,what they hide from you is their Watchtower society version that Jesus has already had his second coming in 1914 and is working *invisibly* through them.
They have won 37 of their 46 Supreme court cases assuring us all of freedom of speech and assembly and equal protection under the law.
The sad irony is that the Watchtower Society *daily* abuses the human rights of thousands of its members. It denies current members the right of free speech by forbidding them to speak to former members, even close family members.
And it denies former members their right of freedom of worship by refusing to allow them to leave the religion with dignity, should they come to disagree with Watchtower's practices or doctrines.
----
Danny Haszard http://www.freeminds.org
Posted by Siri on June 24, 2008 at 7:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"The study distinguished between prayer and meditation, finding that 75 percent of Americans pray at least once per week while 39 percent meditate at least once per week."
I have always heard that prayer is talking to God and meditating is listening to God. Sounds like they are doing more talking than listen. LOL!
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 8:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
90% of 100% of statistical surveys can be made to say what ever you want them to say at least 50% of the time.
They failed to question me during the survey. I would have explained about the mightiest of all gods, the all knowing God of Beer and the preferred place of worshiping the God of Beer... the bow of a fishing boat.
Posted by greyrider on June 24, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The results of these kind of polls are all based on the wording of the questions. Because of that, Religious polls always come up with different results. I'll just say this, common sense says people should pursue the truth, and leave it at that.
Posted by Tammie on June 24, 2008 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
When people get into those long discussions about religion and you're evil if you don't believe and blah blah blah, I just stay out of it. Who am I to tell someone they're wrong for what, if at all, they believe?
Anyways, statistics are made up (what's the phrase?) 90% of the time to show maybe 30% of truth...?
Posted by Weeeee on June 24, 2008 at 8:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe in nectar.
Posted by Early on June 24, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think it speaks of the true America and on the very basis of how and why this country became great and powerful. I believe it tells of the everyday person who may not have a denomination, believes that little voice in their head that speaks to them is God. The heart tells us what to do, the mind tells us how we should interpret it. When they come together, there is inner peace. You don't have to be a bible thumper, one that over powers ever person you meet. You can be quite and to yourself. Jesus did not want us to be flamboyant about our prayers and believes. He said we should pray softly and to ourselves. Those who have not found religion usually mock those that are flamboyant.
I sometimes think church is more for the social atmosphere than to be as a community and STUDY the word. I think this also turns people off of religion. However, I encourage all to listen to the voice inside you, it's usually right.
Posted by MindBath on June 24, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
South Carolina and Mississippi were tops on the list!!
But aren't both states at the bottom of some other list...
Posted by onevoice on June 24, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I won't comment on other religous groups, but many of the Christian Churches in America have softened the message of the Bible or just don't teach it all. The trend is to be more "Seeker Freindly" by providing a joyfull social climate for those who attend. This I believe, is the "Great Falling Away" spoken of in the Bible of the end times.
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm not sure when the end of time will occur, but I'm sure it will be much more closely related to the inability to grow and harvest hops than anything written in the bible. Let’s face it... without hops, is there really any reason for mankind to exist anyway?
:)
Posted by bigdumbchimp on June 24, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"I'm not sure when the end of time will occur, but I'm sure it will be much more closely related to the inability to grow and harvest hops than anything written in the bible. Let's face it... without hops, is there really any reason for mankind to exist anyway?"
Now there's an end of the world dogma I can subscribe to.
Posted by skeeter on June 24, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ColdBeer you have a church I would like to attend! Just tell me when services are and I'll be there with a six-pack of commandments!
Posted by ln1959 on June 24, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I uses to be all into the Church thing, but being as observant as I am, I seen things that just did not say Christian, so I decided to have my own relationship with God. I have gotten to the point that I think church is not a place for worshiping God any more.
Cold Beer...without hops..they is no need to go fishing either. ha ha ha
Posted by Early on June 24, 2008 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Good point in1959
Posted by drp7773 on June 24, 2008 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
They had this story on the news last night, they polled 35,000 people out of how many millions in the USA..The problem with these polls is it depends on which area of the country you call on which answer you will get. In the South (bible belt)I'm sure you will get a big difference in the answers then you will get if you call San Franutsco. So I would think it depends on how slanted you wanted your answer to any polls to be you just call the areas you want a negative or possitive response for your story or polls. This holds true to the election polls, if they call lets say the Mass area which candidate do you think would win out mmmmm whatever way they want the polls to turn out are the areas they call...
Posted by joldham on June 24, 2008 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Today's society is growing more and more tolerant of SIN... We explain todays' sins away by using our "common sense" to forgive or explain them. This country was founded on CHRISTIAN Religious beliefs not on just religious beliefs. Over the centuries(especially in the 19th and 20th) we have allowed "Social" religions to grow in our country. If someone can justify, explain or socialize their religion then we give it credance. We need to get back to living our "CHRISTIAN RELIGION" beliefs and stop sociallizing them. By the way, even the devil believed in GOD.
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
joldham, you do realize that only christians sin, right? Sin is a christian concept. It's not possible for non-christians to sin.
Posted by MissVAbch on June 24, 2008 at 11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Non-Christians just don't recognize sin. Non-Christians, as well as Christians, sin. We are all human.
I only try to recognize my own sin though.
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 11:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually, MissVAbch, you're incorrect. Saying that I (agnostic) am a sinner is like me saying that you are a queekadiddler. Since I just made the word queekaddler up, I won't force you to believe, or admit that you are, in fact, a queekadiddler. That would be rather silly of me.
I can certainly do things that are wrong. Anyone can do things that are wrong. Only christians can sin though. That is a fact and it cannot be disputed. Not even by us queekadiddlers...
Posted by MindBath on June 24, 2008 at 11:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
onevoice and joldham are correct. The softening of the message has been going on for centuries, though. The days when John Calvin can behead children for being disobedient to their parents and Puritans can burn "witches", alas, seem to be gone forever.
Posted by MissVAbch on June 24, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well I can be a queekadiddler in your eyes if that is how you see me. I'm not a queekadiddler in my eyes because I don't recognize it.
You are still a sinner in my eyes. Sorry if you don't like that. Sinners don't like to be sinners.
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” -John Adams from ‘Treaty of Tripoly, article 11′
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” -Thomas Jefferson from ‘Notes on Virginia’
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” -George Washington from the Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absented myself from Christian assemblies.” -Benjamin Franklin
Sorry I don’t have the source for the last one.
Posted by Weeeee on June 24, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm a queekadiddler. All hail the power of nectar.
Posted by MindBath on June 24, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Miss, you just made CB's point. Likewise, he is not a sinner in HIS eyes...
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If you don't believe in hell you don't go to hell.
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm an agnostic insomniac with dyslexia. I lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.
Posted by Weeeee on June 24, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't understand how you can believe in a heaven without believing in a hell.
This is going to sound like a flame. I guess it pretty much is. MissVAbch seems like your typical thumper. "You are still a sinner in my eyes." = I'm holier than thou because I thump.
Posted by Early on June 24, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Newt, for each post you make about not founding on christian believes there are hundreds that we are. We played this game last time, remember?
i think the article is trying to point out that faith is different than it was 100 years ago. That it's more a quite faith and not hell and brimstone. I think that is true. Most of the churches I have been to are just normal everyday people who drink beer at the church social functions, fish, hunt and play golf like everybody else. It's a different culture these days.
Posted by willbillbedamned on June 24, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
To quote George Carlin, "If you don't pray in my schools, I won't think in your Churches"
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were all atheists or deists (Just to name a few). They wrote the first amendment separating church and state. And many of the philisophes heavily influence the founding fathers, read John Locke, the declaration of independence was practically a copy of his book the social contract, Rousseau and Voltaire were good friends with Benjamin Franklin. I would imagine that the separation of church and state they all agreed upon was just a fluke? No where in the constitution is religion mentioned aside from prohibiting it’s influence in government ex: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” or “Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion or that prohibit free exercise of religion, or laws that infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 11:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yep - Early we have danced this dance before. But Oh how I like to twirl:)
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
i don't think MsVabeach sounds like a thumper at all and she definitely does not sound "holier then thou". She's just giving you her opinion and on what she feels her definition of a sinner is.
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Of course he's not a sinner in his eyes, just like she is not a queek a doodler in her eyes. This is one of those topics that we could argue about forever and get no where. No matter what I say, I am not gonna convince coldbeer to believe in my God, just like he will never convince me not to believe in God. It's all about faith and what your belief system is. If coldbeer believes that that there is no intelligent design to the universe, I would be wasting my breath trying to convince him. So, I will continue to mostly watch these debates, and throw an opinion in every now and then. After all, someone who spent 20 years in the Navy can't be all bad, and I know that most Va Beach women are hot, so continue your debate you heathen and queekadeedler.
Posted by MissVAbch on June 24, 2008 at 11:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thumper? Ha! I do believe I said that we are all sinners. I'm not the judge. I certainly don't think I am better than anyone else. Where did that come from?
Posted by MissVAbch on June 24, 2008 at 11:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks Navy. Yes, the debate is pointless really. *Shrug*
Posted by greyrider on June 24, 2008 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's the deal objectively. Either there is a God or there isn't. If there isn't, who cares? But if there is, then there is the issue of which God is the real God? And if it's the Christian God, which of the 38,000 denominations is teaching the truth? If there is a God, and you have to answer to this God one day, it's important to know what the real standards and/or criteria is for entering heaven or hell. Is it lenient? Is it strict? What is forgiveness based on? If there is a God with teachings/standards, there is sin whether we admit to it or not. If there is no God, there is no sin? Again, everyone should pursue the truth.
Once again - book written about the Founding Fathers prior to 1900 - History Book
book written about the Founding Fathers by a 1960's activist - Propaganda
George Washington was a devout Christian in every sense of the word, as were most of the Founders
Posted by redman1959 on June 24, 2008 at 11:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This has eally been interesting to read. I guess we will all find out at the end. As for me, I will follow Christ.
One thing about Christ, I do believe He is the Son of God, he is perfect, though he got angry, and His was a message of Love. Christians are to be Christlike (that's what the word means) but, Christians mess up the message. Hey, we are human. We have done so for centuries. I mess it up everyday.
I find it hard to condem a message of Love. On the other hand I see why the Christian Church is condemed. We are human and mess UP
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 11:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
But it is interesting reading. Being a Christian myself I can see both sides. I can see how it is hard to believe in God when the world is in such a mess.....so having said that...
You all must confess yours sins and give your life over to God and accept Jesus Christ into your hearts. This is the only way to eternal life with God. If you deny him you will burn in hell for eternity..
Brought to you by the BTOA (Bible Thumpers of America)
*taking a bow and exiting stage right*
Posted by greyrider on June 24, 2008 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
George Washington - " It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779 - "What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ."
Washington - May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge - "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian"
The Barbary Powers conflict was seen by some as a new Crusade. Muslims wanted war with what they saw as "Christian Nations" including the USA. The Treaty of Tripoli refers to the fact that the founders did not believe in forced conversion as did the Muslim nations of that day. They did not see themselves as being out to kill Muslims. In that regard, we were not a "Christian nation" in that non-christians were (and are) welcome here.
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
retirednavy, "I'm an agnostic insomniac with dyslexia. I lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog."
THAT is funny as hell! <lol>
MissVAbch, if I am a sinner in your eyes, can you please tell me what sins I have committed (in your eyes)? Not that it's a big deal, I'm just curious. Many Christians are always quick to say that “everyone sins”. They do so without any facts, or even real speculation, as to what sins a person may have committed.
Webster's defines sin as a "transgression against the law of god". Unless you can show me that god exists, and that he has laws, you cannot show me that sin exists. If you can't show me that sin exists, you can't say that I have sinned. Not even in your own eyes. To do so would simply be hypocritical.
I’m not trying to change your religious beliefs. I just tend to get a bit defensive when I am falsely accused.
Posted by msplacedinsc on June 24, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Religion today is all about "the almighty dollar"! Believe it or not. Saving people's souls!! Please!! A group of folks who attend a church begin to dislike the message their preacher spouts every Sunday and are tired of giving their, money to hear his/her crap. So they move onto and form another church so, they feel good about the sermon they hear on Sunday and dole-out more money to hear pleasant things. Welcome to religion in America $$
Posted by kma71 on June 24, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I went to A Catholic school for 9 years. My mother was voted Catholic woman of the year for the Diocese of Charleston sometime in the early 90's. I was forced to go to church and that's why I don't go to church now.
When people ask me what religion I am....I say I'm a recovering catholic. But I have my own thoughts on God and I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion or beliefs! That's that!!
Posted by greyrider on June 24, 2008 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ColdBeer, I think there a lot of people out there who run around screaming at people that they are terrible sinners who are damned to "everlasting fire and damnation" if they don't repent. (Ever see "WW and the Dixie Dance Kings"?) Even I find that offensive. It's more like "we all make mistakes". I wasn't there but I'll bet Jesus didn't run around like some maniac screaming at everyone.
Posted by Weeeee on June 24, 2008 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
That's why the preacher of the church nearest to the CVS on Montague Ave by Park Circle drives an $80k car. Because preachers from small congregations make that much. Come on.
"Why come the pastor have to have him a nice house? HUh!! why come uh uh pastor got to have a nice car? HUh!!! don't ask, i said don't ask, i said........Don't Aaaaask, no questions."
muahahah
Posted by MissVAbch on June 24, 2008 at 12:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CB, have you ever lied? I'm sure you have. In my eyes that is a sin. Therefore, I view you as a sinner, just like every other human being. You can view it anyway you want.
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 12:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank God I'm and atheist.
Just kidding. Here's how us Christians think. We are all given free will. Free will to make decisions and believe what we want. If coldbeer does not believe in God then he made that choice on his own free will. He sounds like an intelligent man, so I'm sure he knows all the facts. He can probably even quote you some bible verses. Now, I believe in God. I made that choice freely and without any duress. Because of that decision I believe in certain things and also have faith in a lot of things. Because of this faith and my belief system I believe that anyone who has turned away from God is condemned. I would never push my beliefs down your throat. From what I have read I believe that coldbeer is a decent human being with good moral values and I would most likely enjoy having a couple of beers with him. Believe me, I have had many non-christian friends, and I never looked down on them or considered myself holier then thou. Oh I know there are a lot of religious kooks out there that give religion a bad name. There are bad Christians just like there are bad non-christians. The thing that makes this country great is that we all have something to bring to the table. I'm sure I can learn a lot from coldbeer as well as MsVabeach.
*stepping off my soap box"
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
May the Flying Spaghetti Monster touch you all with the holy noodle!
Ramen
Posted by dmwallac on June 24, 2008 at 1:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
retired, I don't understand that at all. What do you mean CB can make a choice not to believe? You cannot control what you BELIEVE, only what you PROFESS to believe. I believe the corner of King and Calhoun exists, I cannot change that. I may say I don't believe it, but that just makes me a liar. I can open my heart and accept that that intersection may not exist and try to believe, but if I still don't believe I cannot change it.
That's the whole problem with this. Are people really supposed to burn in hell because of what they believe?
Posted by Girleygirl on June 24, 2008 at 1:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am so happy that everyone is debating and not calling each other names!!
I really enjoy reading you all post this morning.
I can quote ln1959 and that's how I feel as well.
"I uses to be all into the Church thing, but being as observant as I am, I seen things that just did not say Christian, so I decided to have my own relationship with God. I have gotten to the point that I think church is not a place for worshiping God any more."
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 1:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
MissVAbch, lying is not breaking a law of god, so therefore it is not a sin. Good morals and values existed LONG before christianity. Lying exhibits poor morals. Is lying wrong? Yes. Is lying a sin? No. One of the problems with religions is that they latch on to good morals and values and claim them as there own. Christianity does not have a monopoly on all that is "good" in the world. All of that "good" existed before christianity came along. Show me one thing that you think is a sin that was not already looked upon as a bad thing BEFORE your religion came in to being.
Posted by Yeah_I_said_it on June 24, 2008 at 1:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mr. Coldbeer,
Actually lying is breaking a law of God. It is called bearing false witness and that is one of the 10 Commandments (number 9 to be exact).
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So, if we take a good moral or value, and reword it, it now becomes a law of god instead of a good moral or value?
Posted by jeff61 on June 24, 2008 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I must agree with Cold Beer. I also attempt to attend services almost nightly at Apple Bees between 4 to 7 p.m. It is the HappyHour Worship Services
Posted by greyrider on June 24, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
True Christianity is merely an extension of Old Testament Judaism and therefore goes back to the Garden of Eden (i.e. the creation of the world).
Posted by jeff61 on June 24, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by skeeter on June 24, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ColdBeer you have a church I would like to attend! Just tell me when services are and I'll be there with a six-pack of commandments!
I am somewhat disappointed. I would hope you would at least show up with a twevele pack of commandments
Posted by Yeah_I_said_it on June 24, 2008 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good morals and value are of God themselves.
Posted by jeff61 on June 24, 2008 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Of course he's not a sinner in his eyes, just like she is not a queek a doodler in her eyes. This is one of those topics that we could argue about forever and get no where. No matter what I say,
The only true way to settle this debate would be to go to war and see who comes out top. That would be the Christian thing to do
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
dmwallac.
You just made my point. That is what non-believers do. They process not to believe even though the proof is all around them. God has given us free will to choose to believe if Calhoun and King exist. God knows it exists, he put it there, he wants you to believe it's there. If you don't believe ,it is because the enemy does not want you to believe. But, I digress into thumping mode and I don't want to do that.
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
jeff - that would be the Christian thing, now wouldn't it!
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 3:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I f I am a pigmy living in the jungle and I worship a grasshopper and that grasshopper tells me all the same things as the Bible and the 10 commandments do I still go to hell for worshipping a false idol?
Posted by Yeah_I_said_it on June 24, 2008 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Newt,
Yes you would because it would be the same as us Christians worshiping the preacher. They tell us all the things in the Bible and the 10 Commandments, but we are not to worship him (the preacher). He is merely the messenger bringing God's message as would be the grasshopper. If we did worship the preacher we would be damned to hell as well. :-)
Posted by walleyedwoman1215 on June 24, 2008 at 4:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Retirednavy, I think you're wonderful.
As for living a Christ-like life... man, I try hard, and fall short every day! (Example: a months-old, indefensible reply to ColdBeer's comment about modern media.) I have known miracles and suffering. I'm sad that my father died at 52, but I'm not mad at God for not saving him. I believe that on the last day all will be revealed. Until then, I walk by faith and not by sight... and I love a cold beer!!!
Posted by retirednavy on June 24, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
walleyedwoman1215,
Thanks...CB may have many faults but his love of a cold beer is not one of them.
Posted by luvmydogs59 on June 24, 2008 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am not a Christian, I was raised in another faith. I believe in God and am spiritual, but not religious. I have no use for organized religion. I have my own relationship with God and that's good enough for me. I don't need to go to a house of worship to pray. If I feel like praying when I'm in the bathroom, God is still going to listen to me! :)
Posted by Smart_Enough_2_Know_Better on June 24, 2008 at 4:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Americans religious, not rigid?
They clearly didn't include many of the women I've dated in that survey. Even with all my prayers, self-flagellation and begging "for the love of god", and I can't tell you how many times they still said no.
Posted by ColdBeer on June 24, 2008 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I do have many faults. My wife might disagree as to if a love of cold beer should be on the list. She'd probably place it somewhere near the top :)
Religion is not something I can grasp. I'm not singling out christianity, I'm talking about all religions. Sure, I could go to church. I'd fit right in. I'd fit in because I am a good person. It would be a farce though. I cannot accept, in blind faith, that a god exists. I cannot accept, in blind faith, that he is in control of everything that exists. I cannot accept, in blind faith, that someone so powerful and knowing would let so much suffering exists, so many innocent, good people hurt. I cannot accept that even if he did exist, he is worth worshiping, based on all of the pain and suffering I see and read about. I cannot accept the fact that a man can rape, molest or murder, then "find god" and be saved, thus going to heaven. I cannot accept that heaven, which accepts rapist and murders, yet turns away good men like myself, because we are not "saved", is worth spending all eternity in.
In the last few years, I have buried 3 family members. When I look at them lying in a casket, I want to believe that there is someone, some place, something more for them. Some sort of everlasting happiness. I am not the type that can accept that there is such a place, based solely on blind faith. There may be such a place. I don’t know. Neither do you.
Posted by hillbilly on June 24, 2008 at 5:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.
Just because you might not beleive it
doesn't mean it's not true.
Posted by bkeelin on June 24, 2008 at 7:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This article demonstrates the fact that there are a lot of people who are "Christian" in name only. To say that there are other ways to Heaven is to deny your own Christian faith. This is Barak Hussein Obama religion, it is not Christian faith. People don't get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to believe. Either you believe the whole thing or you don't believe any of it. I would challenge someone to read Josh McDowell's books "Evidence that demands a Verdict" Volumes I and II and tell me if they still believe there is no evidence for the Christian faith and no evidence of the God who created the Universe and everything in it. This was an atheist who set out to disprove the Bible and all that was in it and when he objectively looked at all the evidence he found out there was overwhelming evidence in support of Christ and no evidence to contradict the Holy Scriptures. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", a lot of Christians say this because it's in the Bible, God's revelation of Himself to man, Book of Romans Chapter 3, look it up.
Those who say our founding father's weren't Christians and site the first amendment as proof, clearly are learning from revisionist's history books and have yet to look at the evidence that supports the statements about their Christian beliefs. That's worse than the global warming fear mongers refusing to look at the evidence from an objective standpoint and realize that the earth has been cooling the last couple of years even without our help. Look at the evidence in a clear objective manner, all of the evidence, not just from your point of view. Those who claim there is no God have NO evidence, zip, zero, nadda. No one can prove there is not a God.
Christians aren't perfect and that is why people should look to God for answers, in the Bible, and not put Christians on a higher plain. A human will dissapoint you everytime, but when you read and desire understanding in the Bible you will eventually find it. God will not hide Himself from those who truly and diligently seek after Him.
You don't have to believe in Him and He doesn't have to let you into Heaven, after all you don't believe in the God who made it so why would he let you in. You don't want the free gift of forgiveness paid for by Jesus, why would He let you in. Do you just blindly let anyone come into your home and live with you, eating your food, drinking your beer, and sleeping in your bed? or are you a little more picky about who you let do that? You want to know them, and have a relationship with them before you just let them have the run of the place?
People crack me up when they say I don't believe in a God who would let this happen or that happen. You don't come to God on your terms, you come to Him on His terms. After all He is God, not you. Read Josh McDowell's book.
Posted by geekguy2008 on June 24, 2008 at 7:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, religion is all about money. It used to be that money is the root of all evil, well, in my eyes it's RELIGION that is causing 99.9% of the problems in the world today. Open your eyes.
Back in the 16th century, Pope Leo X said, "It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
Money, Power, Control....used for the purposes of Owning, Manipulating and Destroying.
Posted by MindBath on June 24, 2008 at 8:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
@retired
re: your response on belief. dmwallec's point was that you believe what you believe. I take that to mean just that. You do not choose what to believe, you do or you don't. Proof is not all around us, and if it were, we would all believe. That's why religions always invent "faith." Taking a leap of faith is another matter, but we believe what we believe. I used to think I believed and actually professed my faith. But I eventually realized that it was all an emotional response inside me as a result of other people constantly stating their faith.
You blew this one. There is no proof whatsoever of God. Or that there is no God. That's what being agnostic is all about. It is just as stupid to profess there is no god as that there is. No proof. It is the height of arrogance to suggest that it is obvious that the god described in Jesus is unquestionably the god who created us.
And, by the way, if you are a devout Christian, had you been born in Delhi you'd be a devout Hindu, or born in Riyadh you'd be a devout Muslim. In any case, if there is a requirement to believe in some specific version of god or you are doomed, then you can only pretend to go along. You still believe what you believe about it.
Posted by preachlove on June 24, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It really confuses me that a lot of people in this state and country can easily call themselves Christians and yet still have no love or at least a little caring for their fellow man.
Posted by jeff61 on June 24, 2008 at 10:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by Newt on June 24, 2008 at 3:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I f I am a pigmy living in the jungle and I worship a grasshopper and that grasshopper tells me all the same things as the Bible and the 10 commandments do I still go to hell for worshipping a false idol?
If that fu_king grass hopper could actualy talk to you then I would worship it.
Posted by asdpe on June 24, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"This is Barak Hussein Obama religion, it is not Christian faith." WTF? Please, please, please stop spouting these talking points that someone has fed you about Obama's supposed beliefs. My Christian faith teaches me to "judge not lest ye be judged" and that's the way I like to try to be. Yes, I do sin, and I know I fail sometimes in attempts to not judge........like when I read some of the comments posted on this site.
And going WAY back up to a comment about "books written before 1900 are history, those written later are propaganda".....I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more. Think about it for a minute: People from many different nations and backgrounds came here to find religious freedom and escape persecution. Freedom to worship as they pleased. Do we really think that the Founders wanted to establish a national religion in the very land that people came to so they could escape national religions in their homelands? Nope, sorry. That's revisionist, that's the propaganda. Their own personal beliefs aren't the point (the founders).....it's the fact that they recognized the need for the religious freedom that was (and IS) denied in so many parts of the world.
Posted by abitskeptical on June 25, 2008 at 12:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Interesting comments & debates.
I'll throw in my 2 cents--
One of the "messages" of Jesus, as seen in accounts of His life & words, is that we serve God by serving each other. This was demonstrated in a literal & clear way when Jesus, the rabbi/teacher, washed the feet of His disciples. For a rabbi to humble himself & act as servant to his students was remarkable.
Hypocrisy was one of the few things that made Him angry...that, & the money changers(also hypocrites) ripping folks off in front of the temple.
It should be noted that, by all accounts, Jesus never forced anyone to follow Him.
If all Christians (including of course the priests & ministers) remember that they are called to be servants, & humble servants at that...well, just imagine what a difference that would make..
Posted by asdpe on June 25, 2008 at 7:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Amen, and thank you.
Posted by greyrider on June 25, 2008 at 8:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
asdpe, you radically misunderstood my comment. The Founders WERE opposed to a national church. We all agree on that. But they did want the government to be based on biblical principles. Our whole Constitution is nothing more than a Bible Study on God's teaching of how leaders should govern. In fact, most of it comes from the Old Testament, writings revered by millions outside of Christianity. But the Founders were vehement that no one should be given preferential treatment based on church membership. If you understand the Treaty of Tripoli, we were not founded as a Christian nation but rather as a nation founded on Christian principles. There is a difference. Franklin and Jefferson both denied the deity of Christ but agreed with the Bible's teachings on law and government.
Posted by Newt on June 25, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jeff - are you always so thick?
It matches the invisible white guy in the sky that wants your money and the talking snake in a tree!
Duh - get a clue. I'm trying to make a point about how every religion has the same basic principles; they just don't call them the 10 commandments! So, why is it that Christians say all other forms of belief end up with the worshipers going to hell?
Posted by greyrider on June 25, 2008 at 9:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Newt, I believe that it is difficult, but not impossible for a non-christian to go to heaven. The story of Jesus and the Centurion has many interpretations.
Posted by Newt on June 25, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
But what happens to all those other people that believe in Nirvanna or the Budist happy place? Isn't that form of heaven?
Posted by bkeelin on June 25, 2008 at 10:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Newt,
We say that all other religions end up in Hell because we actually believe what the bible teaches. You choose what you believe. Christianity is a relationship not a religion.
Posted by willbillbedamned on June 25, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
hillbilly, just because you believe it doesn't mean it's true.
Posted by Newt on June 25, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Why do you believe what the Bible says? There are so many versions of the Bible, and who's to say that your God didn't inspire Hindu and Buddha to form their religious groups. Who's to say that your God didn't craft his communications to fit with the people of specific regions throughout the world?
Some dudes went on fast and secluded themselves in some caves....had hallucinations from the fasting....shared the experience by word of mouth. Those oral folktales morph into gospels and then someone finally writes them down, than another group of people decide which ones get included in a book and which ones get booted out. What makes this book any different from any other book?
Posted by greyrider on June 25, 2008 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Newt, those are some very good questions, some of which I had at one time. Here are some interesting facts. The Old Testament was passed around orally for centuries, before it was written down. Now think about that. If you tell someone a story, and they tell someone, and they tell someone, and so on, and so on (sounds like an old shampoo commercial), the story eventually gets distorted. But after CENTURIES of these stories and teachings being passed on orally, when modern-day archaeologists explore the ancient grounds, everything is found to be EXACTLY as is written in the OT. In fact, throughout most of history, King David was considered a mythological figure. There was no evidence of his existence except in the Bible. Once again, all archaeological evidence uncovered in the last century cannot point to even the slightest flaw in the Bible's version of his life. If you combine all that with the basic belief that I have that if you look at nature, you have to conclude that this was all created, so there must be a God, it becomes easy to believe that the Bible is God's ord because a loving God would want to teach us what we were created for.
Posted by Newt on June 25, 2008 at 11:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OK - it seems that a lot of thought has been given for you to form your belief structure on...and I admire the fact that you had questions and found answers. That makes it so much easier to understand....you know the logic behind the process.
I still find it hard to believe that all those millions/billions of other faiths are wrong or that they are going to hell. Of course, YOU know I have a hard time swallowing anything related to religion....but I'm trying to be nicer about it:)
Posted by jeff61 on June 25, 2008 at 12:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by Newt on June 25, 2008 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jeff - are you always so thick?
Always???? I have made a total of one or two posts on these boards and say Always??? Your so hell bent on proving your point that you overlooked that I was being silly about the talking grasshopper.. F.O
Posted by ColdBeer on June 25, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The bottom line is that I am right :)
Posted by Newt on June 25, 2008 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes - Coldbeer you are always correct!
Jeff - I never seem to get any of your humor!
Posted by abitskeptical on June 25, 2008 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ColdBeer, what does writing on the bottom line have to do with anything?? :)