City, county at odds over Maybank HighwayCounty's planning group says 5-lane Maybank is needed; city says that would turn Johns Island into 'Anyplace USA' By Tony Bartelme (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Sunday, February 24, 2008
Video
People who live and work on Johns Island discuss their concerns about a plan to widen Maybank Highway to five lanes Watch » On the WebMaybank Traffic Study: The LPA Group's analysis of four options to widen Maybank Highway. Maybank Comments: Comments LPA compiled from residents during a meeting last year. Detail map of proposed Maybank Highway widening Web site: RoadWise project Web site: Charleston Moves opposing project If you want to make comments to RoadWise about plans to widen Maybank Highway, go to www.ccroadwise.org. Comments will be incorporated when the project enters the preliminary design phase, as current plans are conceptual. Flush with half-cent sales tax dollars, county road consultants want to widen Maybank Highway through Johns Island to five lanes, a plan that would create a thoroughfare similar to Savannah Highway and other busy suburban strips. RoadWise, the county's half-cent sales tax traffic group, says the five-lane design — four lanes with a turning lane or landscaped median in the middle — is the best way to move the daily crush of cars and trucks expected to roll through the sea island by 2030. But a chorus of residents, conservationists and transportation activists say the RoadWise concept would cut a five-lane gash through one of the Lowcountry's special places. They argue that RoadWise dismissed the city of Charleston's plan to create a traffic network that preserves Johns Island's sense of place, a plan developed after an intensive public debate. They say the Maybank plan raises questions about the group's ability to creatively tackle the area's traffic problems. "RoadWise's plans would divide neighborhoods, spoil vistas and diminish quality of life, making Johns Island another 'Anyplace USA,'" said Tom Bradford, director of Charleston Moves, a transportation advocacy group. He and others want RoadWise to go back to the drawing board. RoadWise plans to unveil its Maybank Highway proposal Thursday during a Charleston County Council meeting. At stake, Bradford and other critics say, is the future of Johns Island. Clash between visions The debate over Maybank Highway reflects a clash between two development visions: A standard suburban approach where most traffic moves on a single high- volume road versus a village-like grid pattern where vehicles filter though networks of smaller roads. Johns Island is a unique setting for this conflict. West of Charleston, the sea island's soil is particularly rich, fertilized over the eons by decaying forests and marsh. In the 1700s, planters made fortunes growing "sea island cotton," known throughout the world for its strong long strands. After the Civil War, plantations were subdivided into small farms, many of which remained intact through the 1990s. As the Charleston metro area grew, farms on neighboring James Island wilted into subdivisions and strip shopping centers. In recent years, the same forces have affected Johns Island. A Post and Courier analysis in 2006 found that developers had nearly 6,000 housing units in the works for Johns Island. Traffic on Maybank Highway's two lanes already averages about 14,200 vehicles per day. Rush hour can be a maddening series of stops and starts. Many Johns Island residents have fought for years to stop growth from turning their island into another generic suburb. They packed meetings and plastered stickers on their bumpers saying "Johns Island Rural Forever" and "Nix 526," a reference to the controversial expansion of Mark Clark Expressway. Other residents, often just as vocal, wanted new and wider roads, citing the dangers of driving along narrow lanes guarded by immovable but grand live oaks. Up until last year, city traffic officials sought funding to widen Maybank to four lanes with a landscaped median. "At the time, the typical way you did improvements was to add lanes," said Christopher Morgan, city planning director. 
The Post and Courier That changed last year after city planners worked with Johns Island residents and a nationally known traffic engineer on a comprehensive growth plan. This plan called for Maybank to remain two lanes for most of its length with a landscaped median in the middle and new turn lanes at certain intersections. But the most important feature was the creation of new road grids around key crossroads on Maybank, such as its intersection with River Road. These grids would create village-like clusters of development modeled loosely on places like McClellanville and Rockville, Morgan said. In a grid design, roads crisscross, giving people different travel options. "With more connectivity and options, you don't load one particular roadway. You can make neighborhood-quality roads, which is more in keeping with the island's rural character," he said. "Rural is not a five-lane highway." RoadWise is born In 2004, Charleston County voters agreed to tack a half-percent tax on sales for 25 years. The tax is expected to raise $1.3 billion, with about $221 million for greenbelts and parks and the rest for transportation projects. The county created RoadWise to handle this massive traffic program, hiring a consultant, LPA Group of Columbia, to coordinate designs and construction. The widening of Maybank Highway is one of RoadWise's priorities, and LPA engineers recently completed a 603-page traffic study that analyzed four ways to reduce Maybank's congestion. The study projected that by 2030, 40,000 vehicles a day would use Maybank Highway if the Mark Clark Expressway extension were built. That's roughly three times the traffic on Maybank now and about the same as Savannah Highway's current traffic flow. The study also found that without the Mark Clark Expressway, Maybank's traffic would be significantly less in 2030 — about 25,000 cars a day on its busiest stretch, or twice its current flow. In the study, the LPA Group ruled out a two-lane Maybank Highway with a center turn lane and rejected an alternative similar to the city's plan. Neither option would significantly reduce traffic congestion, LPA found. The LPA study said the best option was to build a five-lane Maybank with a center turn lane, a concept similar to Sam Rittenberg Boulevard but with sidewalks. The paved section would be about 67 feet wide, compared to the 24-foot-wide profile of Maybank now. Late last year, LPA collected comments on the five-lane option, as well as a second alternative the state Department of Transportation favors: A four-lane highway with a landscaped median, something similar to Johnny Dodds Boulevard in Mount Pleasant. More than 140 people responded. Most wanted something done to reduce congestion, and some liked the five-lane plan. ("Good, about time!" and "Don't let the naysayers have their way.") Others were furious, calling the plan "bizarrely over-scale" and saying "DO NOT turn Maybank Highway into another very, very ugly and dysfunctional five-lane asphalt racetrack." In November, Charleston Mayor Joe Riley wrote a letter to the county saying the city opposed the five-lane design and favored the grid pattern approach outlined in its Johns Island growth plan. He said the city plans to study how high volumes of traffic would flow through a street network. "Communities all over the country are reaching the conclusion that we cannot build our way out of congestion," he said in the letter. "... the city is very concerned with the widening plans for Maybank Highway as currently proposed, based on their conflict with our Johns Island community plan." LPA plans to recommend a five-lane concept with a landscaped median on stretches, said Peter Valiquete, LPA project manager. Residents upset Don Sparks, a Citadel economics professor and vice president of the League of American Bicyclists, was dumbfounded when he heard about the five-lane concept. It reminded him of 1950s- and 1960s-era plans for commercial strips, an approach he said left America with a soul-sapping landscape of look-alike shopping centers. 
The Post and Courier "It would be the end of the character of that island," he said, adding that he was surprised LPA ruled out the city's grid approach given the amount of time and effort the city put into it. "People are calling them RoadDumb, though I prefer to say Road-Not-So-Wise." Hamilton Davis of the Coastal Conservation League said residents have been crying out for "community-oriented road designs" that preserve the area's character and address traffic congestion. He and other critics say the middle turn lane, sometimes called a suicide lane because of the potential for head-on collisions, would make the highway difficult for pedestrians to cross. He questioned whether the LPA study fully analyzed the capacity of a grid system to carry high volumes of traffic. "If Charleston County continues to rely on the designs of LPA, residents will be left with a series of Sam Rittenberg-type roads bisecting their communities," Davis said. RoadWise engineers used the latest traffic guidelines to reach their conclusions, said Jim Armstrong, the county's director of transportation development. The LPA Group has experience analyzing grid networks, he said, adding that the county never received comments from the city about RoadWise's 603-page traffic study. While County Council controls the half-cent sales tax money, the city of Charleston also can approve or reject the Maybank plan, said Kurt Taylor, who recently was named deputy county administrator for the roads and greenbelt programs. In an interview last week, Riley said he thought RoadWise "is doing a great job," but said a straight four- to five-lane highway "would act and feel like a commercial artery." He said he was confident that a grid could handle high volumes of traffic, adding that what happens to Maybank Highway will define Johns Island's development for generations. "If you make a wide vacant arterial highway, the land uses will change. So the stakes are high." What is RoadWise? Charleston County set up RoadWise to coordinate traffic projects funded mainly by the half-cent sales tax. The county expects to take in $1.3 billion in extra sales tax money during the next 25 years, with about $221 million for greenbelts and $1.1 billion for roads and mass transit. The greenbelt program has three active advisory committees that review spending for urban and rural land protection programs. Though the transportation component involves much more money than the greenbelt program, the transportation side has only one public advisory board, which the county said is currently inactive. Kurt Thomas, deputy county administrator, began overseeing the greenbelt and transportation programs in December. The county hired LPA Group to coordinate the road projects. RoadWise is a mix of county and LPA employees. For the Maybank widening project, the county so far has paid LPA about $98,000 and has authorized up to $329,231 for preliminary designs. Reach Tony Bartelme at tbartelme@postandcourier.com or 937-5554. Reach Tenisha Waldo at 937-5744 or twaldo@postandcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 25 comment(s)
Posted by MotoryachtSoCo on February 24, 2008 at 2:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It was a quiet little island community then progress and growth came, soon followed by the other two horsemen of the apocalypse, greed and arrogance.....
To quote Charleston developer Michael Bennett: "This thing is so expensive. It doesn't make economic sense." Though he wasn't talking about John's Island it gives you a sense of what will happen to the island once the camel gets his head in the tent.
http://cedarposts.blogspot.com/2008/02/b...
As along the Ashley River toward Summerville if we don't move quickly it will be too late.
Posted by tedallen on February 24, 2008 at 8:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is just corruption. Our government has been bought by developers, realtors and in this case the thugs who live on Kiawah and Seabrook Islands. They want this highway. Because they don't care about the animals, the culture, the trees, the peacefulness that exist here. They care abou money. I suggest the we as Americans exercise our right to remove from office those who subscribe to this sort of nonsense. We are trying to save the enviornment, make things better, not become Mt. Pleasant, James Island, West Ashley, Summerville...They are destroyed. Do not do business with realtors, developers or anyone affiliated with this destruction. And remember we have a right...to VOTE VOTE VOTE and VOTE somemore. It is time for change..
Posted by stono on February 24, 2008 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree that sprawl in Chas Co is increasing along with traffic. It seems that when a new road is built to alleviate traffic problems, businesses are allowed to be built all along that road. This attracts people which in turn congests that road. "We can't complete I526 nor widen Maybank Highway" are the cries of John's Island residents...while the rest of us are exposed & suffering from the traffic problems. The John's Island residents don't want traffic congestion in their world. I can't say I blame them but the rest of us Charlestonians are wanting some relief!!
Posted by sweetsouthernpearl on February 24, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"The study projected that by 2030, 40,000 vehicles a day would use Maybank Highway if the Mark Clark Expressway extension were built. That's roughly three times the traffic on Maybank now and about the same as Savannah Highway's current traffic flow."
I certainly would not be building roads based on the 526 extension being built - this is not a done deal by any stretch.
Also, the LPA group needs to be fired as they refuse to take into account the wishes of the city of Charleston, the residents of Johns Island, or the conservation groups. It is fairly apparent that they threw together a well used and common plan as that allowed them to maximize their profits by not having to really think and put a creative plan together. Any one can write a 603 page document. How many pages a document contains is irrelevant. What is the substance of the document? Wonder who might be getting kickbacks?
BTW: I grew up in Francis Marion National Forest & am a resident of Seabrook Island. I happen to care deeply about preserving Johns Island and the natural beauty and wildlife of the area. For the record, I do not want 526 or the proposed LPA Maybank plan. In fact, the very reason I chose Seabrook is "the animals, the culture, the trees, the peacefulness that exist here".
Posted by buzzy on February 24, 2008 at 1:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Have the variables affecting traffic loads been carefully considered? Perhaps the projected figures themselves are not correct. When the cost of fuel increases to $6 to $7 per gallon, I dare say traffic loads will be affected. Among the home building industry I am noticing a reduction of wasted trips and an increase in the use of car-pools and smaller vehicles. Construction workers comprise a large percentage of the traffic on these roads. In addition, the by-laws of some communities allow contractors to work only during certain hours. This forces everyone to use the roads at the same time and artificially
inflates congestion. I think we should be considering ways to decrease congestion, such as limitting the number of single occupant vehicles and unnecesary trips. I may sound naieve, but how large a road is large enough? 2030 will be a different world as far as fuel is concerned. There will likely be a lot fewer cars on the road than we are being told. And, the number and time of day of vehicles on the road is the real problem.
Posted by MotoryachtSoCo on February 24, 2008 at 2:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
How large is large enough???... well the answer might scare you into staying home.
Dallas, Atlanta, San Jose all have 8 lane highways and that is only one direction 16 lanes of speeding cars and 18 wheelers.
How bad can it get in 20 years visit Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head Island
Posted by Oceanlover on February 24, 2008 at 3:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't know what y'all are complaining about. Myrtle Beach is paradise and I want Charleston to be just like it. And I want Maybank to be just like the Hwy 17 bypass thru Myrtle Beach. Everyone wants that, or else they're just a bunch of tree huggers. In fact will make Charleston County so much better to have no trees or farms. If we don't have trees, then people won't have to worry about running into them. I have to drive through James and Johns Islands all the time. I think to myself everytime I go down Riverland Drive or River Road or Maybank, how much better it would be if I could find a freaking Arby's or a car wash and not have all these dang trees. And don't you know that mites live in Spanish Moss? That stuff is plain nasty. And farms, shoot, who needs farms when we have Twinkies and Poptarts? They don't use farms to make those things and I eat em all the time. And I want more houses too. More houses creates more temporary jobs for the immigrants who build them. If y'all don't you're crazy. Way more houses, way fewer trees and farms and way more cars. It's the American Way. And soon it will be the Charleston way too. Welcome to the future. Lead, follow or get the heck out of the way of my Expedition.
Posted by rollo on February 24, 2008 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Say what you want, tongue in cheek or otherwise, pro or con, one plan or the other.
"Johnisland" is on the map and nobody can stop the future. There is only one way to halt what is coming, and that is for EVERY property owner to refuse to sell, EVER! That ain't going to happen, and everyone capable of reading this post understands that.
AS far as the two divergent plans for Maybank, they realy amount to the same thing. "Networking" roads through neighborhoods will probably relieve some congestion at some intersections, but that traffic will have to return to Maybank at some point down the road, or,... a totally alternative route will have to be developed...(and we're back to I-526 as originally proposed).
I don't live on JI, but I do business and some socializing over that way, and I've seen what happens to traffic at Maybank + River as the result of a minor fender-bender at 8:00 in the morning on a Tuesday.
I hope and pray for all of y'all that you can bring about a good plan that works for long into the future, because if you let your emotions rule, you'll only find the problems getting worse.
Posted by Oceanlover on February 24, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Rollo, you're full of it if you think the future in this state is only unlimited development. They said the same thing about all the land in the ACE Basin. One day it would all be sprawled out just like Florida. Then a bunch of very smart people got together and figured out how to protect it through PRIVATE conservation efforts. Tree hugging republicans mostly. Same thing happened on St. Helena Island. Bunch of black folks who said enough of white folks chasing us off our land. Is there a lot more traffic and development down in Beaufort and St. Helena than there than there used to be? Yep. Is it ever going to look like Hilton Head? Nope.
Posted by jnot on February 24, 2008 at 7:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank god the people on Johns Island aren't just rolling over for this. Maybank doesn't have to become the next Folly Rd.
Posted by majorjohnson on February 24, 2008 at 7:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There is a very simple solution to this problem, prohibit the sale or development of property on Johns Island. The people who don't want to live there anymore, that's fine but you can't sell your property. The folks who want a bigger house, have way more property than they want to pay property taxes on, tough...you own it, you have to keep it. The developers these traitors have already sold their property to, you are evil and have no right to damage the islands that belong to the Peoples Republic!
It's not those greedy evil developers as much as the greedy evil property owners selling to the greedy evil developers, so just stop it right now. If you own it, you can't sell it, you can't develop it. When you die you can pass it to your children but they can't sell it either. If you have no children, or you're children or you don't want it anymore, ownership simply reverts to the state. That way the state, county, whatever, doesn't have to build any new roads.
After all, these property owners are committing crimes against the peoples republic! They are doing things for their own greedy purposes that should be considered crimes against the socialist ideal! Down with the property owners! Lets all go burn their houses and take their property. What right do these people think they have that they can sell their property for their own profit, without considering the feelings of the other citizens of the republic?
Posted by MotoryachtSoCo on February 24, 2008 at 7:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OceanLover - Your 3:35 Post gets major props!
You so need to add it to the commemts at:
http://cedarposts.blogspot.com/2008/02/b...
Funny thing is you are so right about all that!
Major - Suits me if people sell make a killing and move on just don't make me pay to for the roads, services and congestion.
Posted by majorjohnson on February 24, 2008 at 7:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Fact is most of the people making comments against any development live in summerville, ladson, mt. pleasant...you either bought houses or had houses built that at one time previous residents of that city didn't want built. They were crying "greedy developers!" And you built your house or bought it anyway...then you started crying "greedy developers!" You had yours and those folks were silly crybabies...but after you had yours the same developers you bought from became "greedy and evil" because they were letting other people buy. If you don't live in the house that your grandfather built, you're a damned hypocrite.
I don't see any of you offering to give your home to the city to tear down and put a farm or park on because it's built by "greedy developers"...I've seen some of these same posters calling for impact fees, but for some reason I don't see those posters calling for those impact fees to be retroactive so they have to pay for the new road, schools, infrastructure their houses caused...small wonder there.
I suggest yall pool your credit lines and purchase every inch of james island you can. Leave it as forest, manage the farmland, pay the property taxes every year. You can keep it as pristine as you like, and once you have enough you can let the roads go to dirt if you like. Put your money where your socialist sentiments are. It's all about keeping someone else from having anyway. I'm sure if you are the ones having it's all good.
Posted by rollo on February 24, 2008 at 8:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I had another post here,
I pointed out that Ace Basin property had been removed from local tax rolls, and everyone pays the diff in State and Fed taxes. Someone doesn't want y'all to be aware of that.
Or someone took exception to another statement about Maybank not being just JI, it also serves wadmallah, Rockville, Kiawah, and Seabrook.
Only a coward would have a post removed without informing the poster as to the reason, so we know there is a coward among us.
Posted by YankeeLady on February 24, 2008 at 8:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There will be an irrevocable change if Maybank Highway is widened and/or I-526 is completed per its antiquated design. Say goodbye to trees, wildlife, quiet, beauty, and hello to more houses, strip malls and traffic. It will be just the beginning of yet more roads and development, reaching out like tentacles to the area west of the Ashley, where developers and politicians have their sights set.
Visit James Island County Park some day, and go down to the Stono River landing. Stop and listen to the quiet, and feel the river moving past. Look out onto the marsh, and remember all those gone before you who have looked out onto that same river, at the same sun, and felt the same breeze. Then, fast forward to a time when a cement monstrosity crosses the Stono from what's left of James Island, carrying yet more and more trucks and cars, and overwhelmed by traffic volume before it was even opened. Instead of the river, listen to the whir of wheels and the roar of engines and exhausts, smell the fumes, watch the debris falling over into the water and, instead of birds, watch trash float by. Part of the park will be gone as well, but citizens don't matter, money does.
James Islanders did not roll over and die when it comes to development. If you attend any Planning Commission hearings, you'll know that. Regardless of public opposition, the City and the Planning Commission just keep rolling along. One of my favorite meetings was when, in response to opposition to a development, the Chairman said, "Traffic doesn't matter - there'll always be traffic", and "Drainage doesn't matter - Charleston floods". Kind of ironic that the City continues to sell out and destroy James Island, but says it wants to preserve John's Island. What's the real motivation here?
The alternatives to more big roads should be considered, as both a cost-saving and a benefit to the quality of life for present and future residents. John's Islanders, get your neighborhoods organized and vocal!!!
Posted by rollo on February 24, 2008 at 8:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
majorjohnson,
once again, you said it all, people want to keep what they have, but don't want to pay what it costs to keep it.
Then again, there are only a few protesting posts here, I suspect their neighbors see the handwriting on the wall and are making their own plans to move to New Hope, or points beyond.
Posted by MotoryachtSoCo on February 24, 2008 at 9:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rollo - as I understand it from the P&C they can close the entire thread but the can't just bleep ya, as the post will still show with a "comment deleted" in it's place.
Major - As far as having the roads go to dirt that's what my grandparents did, gave the land to some trust who gave it to the state, 600 acres of family land went poof and any inheritance I was praying for as well.
And yes the land left the tax paying rolls of the county, but there are 78 parcels of land in the ACE Basin that are private and yes that is what John's Island folk need to do.
Posted by rollo on February 24, 2008 at 9:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I learned to sail on the Stono. I taught my kids to fish and cast a net, and water-ski, and most important, sail. Right on the Stono. I love the Stono!
Before there was a Jas I County Park, there was riverfront property there. Most of the property was donated to the county to be used as a park, but much of the property was changed drastically for the purpose of accommodating the park! The park is NOT pristine, it is as artificial as any bridge or highway.
Posted by rollo on February 24, 2008 at 9:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Palmettoman,
If you are in possession of evidence of actual criminal activity and you don't bring that evidence forward, you may be an accomplice to that criminal activity.
OTOH, you could plea to a lesser charge of "irresponsible blowhard" and everyone here would verify your account.
Posted by tfuzzrus on February 24, 2008 at 10:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I read all the comments here and yes I agree with most of them. We have 3 acres with no neighbors and we have enjoyed the privacy here since we moved in 5 years ago. But we do know the change is coming and we see it every year with our taxes going through the roof. But change is inevitable and with all the bickering here there is nothing we can do because the decisions have been made to widen maybank whether we like or not. Sure it would be nice to keep our land and enjoy it but growth is coming and we all know it. Yea I am tired of the traffic and all the sirens at all ours of the night but there is nothing we can do about it because politicians have already made there decision on maybank highway and Johns Island.
Posted by rollo on February 24, 2008 at 11:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Motoryacht;
I never said the P&C removed my post. Any poster who is logged in can remove any post, totally anonymously. That's why I consider doing so to be cowardly.
As for the "Ac Basin" solution, DO you wish to be a tenant on your own property?
Posted by majorjohnson on February 25, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No one can remove a post anonymously. You can flag it, the moderators get a note that the message is flagged, the moderator leaves it or replaces the text with a note that the text was removed by the moderator. You probably hit preview and forgot to actually post it.
Posted by icbmman on February 25, 2008 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The city of Chas plan is actually quite stupid, because it doesn't take into account the stupidity of drivers. The reason why roads in the 50s and 60s were built as 4 or 5 lanes was that it allowed for faster traffic to pass slower traffic, allowed traffic to continue to flow after an accident, allowed traffic a turn-off lane to prohibit blocking cars while waiting on the turn, and provided a lane for emergency vehicles to get to their job quicker. Many of the leaders and engineers in those decades actually had common sense about driving and had imagination to apply it to road designs.
This grided plan with 2-lane roads wreaks of utter stupidity and regressiveness. Maybank isn't a freaking resort road along a golf course. It is a major thoroughfare for the whole island. The grided areas still will bottleneck to the main highway at their access points, negating any benefit they may provide.
I think the best compromise is to widen Maybank as 2 separate roads, 3-oneway lanes on each side with a grass/tree-lined median, negating significant tree loss and maintaining the integrity of the scenic portions of the highway. Provide plenty of turn spaces within the median to minimize U-turns for emergency vehicles.
Posted by icbmman on February 25, 2008 at 1:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Note the wording in P&C's beginning paragraph in the article: "...county road consultants want to widen Maybank Highway through Johns Island to five lanes, a plan that would create a thoroughfare similar to Savannah Highway and other busy suburban strips."
Unbelievable. I'm starting to highly doubt objectivity in this newspaper's reporting, especially with that statement.
Posted by rollo on February 25, 2008 at 10:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Everyone,
If I'm wrong about that post being assasinated, I apologize.
Rollo