Poker players' legal saga to go onBy Schuyler Kropf (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Saturday, August 23, 2008
Past storiesPoker players to get hearing; The 5 will ask judge to dismiss case outright, 08/21/08 Defendants in gambling sting determined to go to trial; Poker players still waiting, published 03/10/08 Some implicated in Hanahan poker raid also charged in Mt. P., published 04/09/08 Poker players fold 'em; 19 plead guilty; fight brews over seized money, property, published 04/15/08 Poker chips get advertised as Father's Day gifts in sporting goods stores. TV shows with play-by-play tournaments are beamed into living rooms. Nationally, the poker craze is everywhere. But in South Carolina, hosting a kitchen-table card game might still bring the police knocking on your front door with a warrant. Friday's decision by a Mount Pleasant judge not to dismiss aging gambling charges against five "Texas Hold 'em" players continues a legal saga that appears to have no end in sight. Even the group's lawyer predicts it could be another two years before the matter runs its course, an estimate based on the hope of getting the case scheduled for trial and the likely appeals that will follow. Meanwhile, poker advocates watching from afar are somewhat amused at what's happening and at how a Mount Pleasant poker raid from April 2006 continues to get attention. Shawn Green, manager of online content for Card Player magazine, said Friday that he regularly hears stories of police raids of private games "here and there," in the United States, "but nothing as ridiculous as this." To recap: After observing a private home on Glencoe Street, Mount Pleasant Police raided the site, busting an organized "Texas Hold 'em" tournament where the host was pocketing some of the table cash. Players at the house learned of the game through an Internet invite. In a recent court filing, Jeffrey A. Phillips, the attorney for five players still fighting the charges gave a sympathetic portrait of the night: He described the participants as "16 middle class working men and one 78-year-old grandmother" who had guns pointed at their heads by flak-jacketed police. In court Friday, Phillips also argued that the case should be tossed because South Carolina's 200-year-old anti-card, anti-dice laws are too antiquated and vague for anyone to make sense of today. For example, the law mentions aged games, including roly-poley, rouge et noir and draughts. Additionally, Phillips argued that the home that hosted the game wasn't an illegal casino or a public house of gaming under the law. "It was a house to live in and that's what (the sponsor) used it for," Phillips said. Despite his argument, Phillips held the losing hand. Town Judge J. Lawrence Duffy Jr. said the state Legislature has revisited South Carolina's anti-gambling statutes at least nine times over the years, meaning lawmakers are just fine with the wording as is. No date has been set for a trial in the case. Town prosecutor Ira Grossman controls the docket. He said it is not out of the ordinary for cases to take more than 2 years to get to trial and that as many as 10 to 12 in the Mount Pleasant court system might be in a similar timetable. He also said the case is more than about a poker game since a quantity of drugs was found and cars filled the residential neighborhood. To hear experts talk, gambling is as old as America. Horse-betting was popular in early Charleston, and the West could not have been settled without poker, said Jim Kilby, former gambling professor at the University of Nevada Las Vegas and now an industry consultant. Miners, women, gambling cards and gold all went together, he said. But he added that today, poker's popularity is so great that private citizens acting below the radar "are trying to operate like we do in Nevada, and the local laws say you can't do it." Recent attempts to bring poker more out in the open in South Carolina have been squashed quickly. State Rep. Wallace Scarborough, R-James Island, tried to get the Legislature to legalize the games, but the bill went nowhere. A charity tournament pushed by a local radio station likewise was shut down by the State Law Enforcement Division. Another police raid in April in a well-to-do section of Hanahan drew similar gambling arrests, though most of those cases have pleaded out, a defense lawyer said. While police authorities say targeting every local game of poker is not their goal, Phillips, the lawyer for the group, said he's in the case for the long-haul, contending poker is not a detrimental game and that state law should be changed to legalize private games. His reason for taking the poker case also is semi-personal in nature; the Greenville lawyer is a poker enthusiast who made the final table in one big tournament. His license plate also tells the tale: It reads "Hold'em." Reach Schuyler Kropf at 937-5551, or skropf@postandcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 43 comment(s)
Posted by rjcontego on August 23, 2008 at 1:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
wow..how exciting...2 more years of in-depth investigative reporting on poker games played at home...hopefully at the end there will be an appeal so it can go on another year or 2!
Posted by BUSCH2003 on August 23, 2008 at 6:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Why don't we hear about the police arresting all the Bridge players all over South Carolina and all the other card players. This looks like a case of selective prosecution. If it's illegal to play card games, then surely it's illegal to sell the paraphernalia to play cards/dice games. We need to close all businesses that sell gaming/cards/dice because they have no valid use under the law being used to prosecute these card players.
Posted by lemonhead on August 23, 2008 at 7:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My god arressting people for playing cards at their house... doesnt the police have more important things to worry and investigate then what people are doing in their home?? {laughs} i will sleep better at night the cops are partoling the insides of peoples home
Posted by shoelaces on August 23, 2008 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My 65 year old mother in law and her friends play a weekly game of Bunco. Each puts in a few dollars and winner takes all. How is this any different? I have been to a Bunco night as well. Same rules. Put in 5 bucks, winner takes all, the winner buys the booze and food for the next Bunco and hosts it. The party goes on.
Why is the SC "education" lottery legal yet betting on cards is not? You put money into both in the hopes of winning money.
Hmmmm.....wait a minute!!! The government can't collect a tax on these at home gamblers. Maybe that's it!!!
What a waste of time and resources to pursue this further.
Posted by shoelaces on August 23, 2008 at 7:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I hope I didn't just tip the cops off to an illegal gambling ring of aging women.....
Posted by Paul on August 23, 2008 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is why we are viewed as such a backward and ignorant State, We spend all our effort , both politically and locally on such mundane and tabloid subjects.
Busting card players in their private homes, making illegal the show of underpants on immature kids; no wonder Columbia is "Flying over the Cuckoo's Nest" ...
Posted by nurse7798 on August 23, 2008 at 7:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bet Grandma was winning !! This is insanity. Anything to keep some legal thing hanging over someones head forever..typical of South Carolina. Most likely the state is upset over not making any money on this kind of activity. It's all about the money here.
Posted by Brant on August 23, 2008 at 8:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OMG!! It's getting to where it's not even safe to have a friendly card game in your own home. Good Grief!!! It's bad enough that the "government" is trying its darndest to invade our bedrooms...now this! This is a democracy? Uh, yeah.....
Posted by jeff61 on August 23, 2008 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think the States case is that this was no a friendly good old boy card game. It was an organized gambeling operation ran by several people. The State claim the stakes at the games ran into the thousands. Rather any of that is true I do not know. Since the state runs a gameling organization I think the law should be changed. Any one wishes to run a organized high stakes poker game (like bingo) should only need to get a permit or something.... Thoughts??????
Posted by onedeep on August 23, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My usual reminder if you find yourself on the jury for this:
Jury nullification - Finding that the defendants are not guilty - even if you believe they did break the law - because the law itself is wrong.
This is an option all juries have, yet no lawyer and no judge will tell you that you can do this. I think that - in this case especially - it is more than applicable.
So if you find yourself being called for jury duty for any case, read up on the jury nullification.
Posted by commonsence on August 23, 2008 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I guess I'm out man out today. Enforcement isn't selective and neither are the laws. They broke the law, they pay - or should have. This could have been over with the payment of a fine except for the grandstanding of the defendants and their attorney. Then they could have gone on and worked to change the law. Instead they are trying to use the courts to legislate. Pay your fines and quit your whining. No sympathy here...
Posted by abitskeptical on August 23, 2008 at 9:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
onedeep-not only will no judge or lawyer inform a jury of this option, they specifically have been known to disqualify members of a jury pool who admit to being knowledgeable about this. Can anyone say 'jury tampering'?
Posted by coolfreaknbeans on August 23, 2008 at 9:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
commonsence -You are absolutely correct.I think I've decided to do the right thing.I'm callng the police on my daughters.One has a Mickey Mouse card matching game and the other is so hard core she has Uno.I hope PoPo brings my kids sorry azzes down so the neighborhood can be safe.Shady gambling thugs.
Posted by abitskeptical on August 23, 2008 at 9:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
People interested in educating themselves on the topic of jury nullification should go to the website for FIJA-the FULLY INFORMED JURY ASSOCIATION
http://www.fija.org/
Posted by coolfreaknbeans on August 23, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OK now that I'm down with the sarcastic rant.It's easy to say pay the fine and move on-it's not you that will have a criminal record over a card game.I would fight to not have a criminal record.It can prevent you from future employment and ruin your life and reputation.
Posted by Rggr on August 23, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
To say this was a simple card game is distorting the facts to meet your agenda.
Posted by commonsence on August 23, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So they didn't know they were violating the law? Sounds like they just didn't agree with it. Big difference. If and when I decide not to follow a law just because I don't think it's right, then I will fully expect to pay the consequences if I get caught. It's called being a responsible adult.
Posted by coolfreaknbeans on August 23, 2008 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My view is basically the same as BUSCH2003.Very good points in that post.Now I know these games are illegal-should my kids go to jail commonsence?
Posted by buclark on August 23, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It makes sense in the born again,bigoted, bible belt.
Posted by Rggr on August 23, 2008 at 9:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm with you, they knew the law and broke it because they didn't like the law. They should have worked to change it. Even if the law is changed, it's likely that what they were doing wouldn't be legal anyway.
Posted by shoelaces on August 23, 2008 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This may say too much about my parents parenting skills but........
We used to play cards when I was little. We played poker and bet with pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters. This is how I learned how to play poker. It was how my parents gave me money (sometimes) to buy things I wanted without really giving me money. It made me feel like I earned it or won it.
I am pretty sure they usually let me win and this was somehow "wrong" but we had lots of family fun at the kitchen table.
Posted by firejim on August 23, 2008 at 10:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
All most everyone that commented missed the truth. They were not friends. The host put it ot on the internet. He took a peice of the action. It seems to me no one has to worry except organized crime. Also to any future hosts, the police do use the internet.
Posted by devilsadvocate77 on August 23, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How about Poker Runs that motorcycle groups use as fund raisers? My two wheelin' buddies best be careful or the Poker Police may set a roadblock for all you 'card playin', motorcyle ridin', ruffians'.
Posted by jeff61 on August 23, 2008 at 11:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't think the arugement is if the law should be changed, It looks most are in agreement with that. But to what extent. But again the State's contention is this was a not a little friendly card game these people were involved int. It was a organized "high states" gambling operation on a somewhat large scale. How should the law be changed to address people wanting to operate such gambling operation????
Posted by charlestonnative1963 on August 23, 2008 at 11:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
meanwhile in plasticville-crime continues...but the cops are 2 busy with people playing poker to go after the crime. I hope they fight this in court and win-then maybe they will go after real crime. what a state we live in.
Posted by STREETLAW on August 23, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
WE NEED FOOTBALL!
Seriously folks, can be get some of this energy going in the direction of getting the law changed to give citizens in South Carolina the same rights as they have in most other states? Write your Salons and demand your freedom to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Let's get the laws changed and save people these long and dangerous trips to casinos afar.
And yes, if Clemson beats Carolina in football, I will roll that peanut down Folly Rd. with my nose. Omygosh, did I just make a bet!!!!
Posted by jeff61 on August 23, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ok,, I see many arugements about the small sitting around the kitchen table drinking beer and munchy food friendly card games. I agree the law should be changed to allow such private games. This case however was not one of those type games and I see no one address that. How should the law be changed for those open to the "public" high stakes poker games? Ok now let me ask this question, be honest and don't spare my feeling. Is this not being addressed because it is like passing an accident on the highway - I don't WANT to look, but sometimes I look, and then I feel nauseous and hate myself for exposing myself to that.
Posted by bm1961 on August 23, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"devilsadvocate77 on August 23, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How about Poker Runs that motorcycle groups use as fund raisers? My two wheelin' buddies best be careful or the Poker Police may set a roadblock for all you 'card playin', motorcyle ridin', ruffians'."
Exactly, are the police gonna start arresting every bike that pulls into the last stop for gambling. They will be setting up roadblocks every weekend. This story is making SC and Mt Pleasant, and the Judge look like idiots. Oh yea, lets enforce every law on the book with this attitude, which includes many established decades ago. They are dragging this case out, and making the lawyers big money in the long run. Every meeting, every phone call, every fax is putting money in the pockets of the attorneys involved, and the judge knows this. His intent is to spend them into submission (std. practice for attorneys). Drag the case out, let the defending attorneys bill the hell out of everyone until they cry "Uncle". I'm sure the defending attorneys are gonna take the postion of their client while the case is active, then after the case is over, go and thank the judge for this "profitable case". In this case, the judge is gonna drag this out for as long as he can, knowing the meter is always running for the attorneys involved, punishing the accused for being arrogant enough to challenge his rule!
Posted by moonpie on August 23, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Right "jeff" SC's case is these people broke the law as it was written. It may have been a friendly game but it's still illegal in SC.
That's another issue for another day in another court.
Posted by coolfreaknbeans on August 23, 2008 at 11:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh for those with the simplistic the law is the law and they broke it..Look up the dumb laws still on the books here.We just voted several years ago on allowing(legally)interacial marriage!Should we have nullified their marriages and arrested these "offenders"?They were breaking the law?What about kids jay walking in neighborhoods?Can we still beat our wives on Sundays on the court steps?
Posted by ballera33 on August 23, 2008 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ridiculous that our money is being spent on this case instead of changing the law to make it less dated and absurd. There are so many other issues that require attention, and I cannot believe that this is going as far as it is. I know of a woman that got pulled for a DUI after falling asleep at a red light and she got a warning!!!!! She could have killed someone. Playing poker in your home isn't likely going to end in someone's death or brain damage. South Carolina needs to get with the times.
And to commonsense I ask this ... why is the State lottery any different? It is a form of gambling. People pay their money in hopes of winning and forfeit all monies if they lose. Sounds a bit hypocrital to me because such a classification would fit into the current laws.
Posted by candygirl on August 23, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with commonsense and firejim
The law is the law and it was broken.
This was not a group of friends getting together for a night of poker,this was more than that.
Also, mentioned " there was a quantity of drugs found and cars filled the residental neighborhood."
Would all you supporters want this kind of activity going on in your neighborhood?
Posted by Rggr on August 23, 2008 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't particularly like the speed limit, and I drive a few miles over it just like many others. I have not had a problem when I've done that. I still don't have sympathy for a guy that modifies his car, doubles the speed limit, and complains that it's too low when he gets a ticket.
Posted by ChasCarolinaGirl on August 23, 2008 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For the ones who say "The law is the law" Read this please: http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-stat... ...and you talk about jail overcrowding now? Oral sex is illegal in SC!!!!!!! I mean, come on! I guess Im a criminal then ... lol
As Jeff said, this was a completely different operation. It wasnt like a few people went and had a friendly little game ... it was very intricate.
Just legalize pot and poker!
Posted by lillycollette on August 23, 2008 at 6:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
*
Posted by luvmydogs59 on August 23, 2008 at 8:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
All this hoopla and yet the lottery and bingo are ok...so what gives? Either you have it all or you have none. Get your heads out from up your collective asses, politicians of SC!
Posted by doubledown on August 23, 2008 at 8:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Does anybody remember about 3 years ago, at a little bar called Hanahan's, there was a makeshift pool tournament that the bar had no control over. Everybody chips in 5 dollars and after it's over, the "winner" buys all participants a beverage of their choice. Nobody really wins anything more than the "honor" of buying the drinks. Next thing you know, the po-po comes in and busts the bar for the illegal gambling on the pool tournament. They took all the pool balls, cue sticks, chalk, etc. as "evidence". Whether its a poker game or small pool tourney the police are gonna make a big deal of it. Some say it was something bigger than a kitchen table card game. These guys playing were not your week-to-week, paycheck-to-paycheck players. If you got someone who makes $30,000/year and lives on Remount Road with a $20 buy-in, and then a $200,000/year person at $100 or $200 buy-in living in Tanner Plantation, what really is the difference? I guarantee you it will hurt the small guy before it hurts the professional business owner. Do we penalize the professional guy because he happens to be better able to afford the more expensive game. This was just an opportunity for a policeman who hardly makes nothing to show a little authority over the big bad rich guy. Yeah let's concentrate on a card game that is hurting nobody and let the rapists and robbers and crackheads have their way with real victims. Think of how the money spent on this "policework" could have been spent on protecting us against real criminals.
Posted by mellodbennett on August 23, 2008 at 10:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
man i love living in the USSR i mean with all the liberties that are taken from us anymore, we might as well be a communitst country. You can play the lottery but you cant have a friendly poker game in your own house. Would they storm your house if you were playing 1 dollar a card bingo?
Posted by bigwhip on August 24, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mt. P's black eye still looks bad and will linger another two years thanks to Mr. Grossman. I don't disagree with the judge's decision and I hope they request a jury trial. If they get it I don't think they will be convicted. All of this could have been avoided had the police used a modicum of judgment. They could have parked a cruiser in front of the house and shut the game down. No, they had to "swat" team it and look at what they reaped.
Posted by Perspective on August 24, 2008 at 10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas - To actually make your experiment equal. You need to have it in a residential neighborhood and have all the participants park in the neighbors front yard. You need to make it high stakes, make one of the women profit by charging the others just to show up, best of all you need to have a couple of the players possessing drugs and at least one needs to have outstanding warrants. :)
I am all for people playing cards, dice or whatever with their friends, but running an ILLEGAL, UNTAXED, AND UNLICENSED CASINO in a neighborhood is disgusting.
ps: That jury nullification goes both ways. There is no way these people will get six "not guilty votes". Now that they are wasting my tax dollars for their stupidity, I hope the Town of Mount Pleasant repeatedly tries these subjects even if there is a hung jury because of some moron on the jury. They should just pay their tickets and work to change the law.
Posted by JLWDALFAN on August 25, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE IDIOTS IN COLUMBIA WHO MAKE THESE STUPID LAWS. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE POKER IN OUR HOME. WHY CAN'T I PLAY VIDEO POKER. OH, THATS RIGHT, THEY ARENT GETTING THEIR SHARE OF THE PROFITS. WE NEED TO GET RID OF THESE POLITICIANS AND REPLACE THEM WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING AFTER REAL CRIMES. I WANT TO PLAY VIDEO POKER IF I CHOOSE. I WANT TO HAVE A CARD GAME IN MY HOME IF I CHOOSE. STUPID IDIOTS, GET OUT OF OUR LIVES.
Posted by mademoiselle16 on August 25, 2008 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So... if we're all for enforcing aging, vague, out-dated laws, then I'll see you on Sunday, on the courthouse steps, where my husband will beat me, because it's legal as long as it's at that place and time. In fact, that sounds like it would be the perfect demonstration of how antiquated some of our laws are, and how upset some citizens are about it!
Posted by paternis on August 25, 2008 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Many will mock the law and insult our intelligence by comparing this matter to grandma playing bridge or our kids playing "Go-Fish". They try to cloud the issue with thier comments. Fact - These folks were not having a friendly game of cards. They were there to gamble and win money. Fact - We are not talking about playing for nickles and dimes we are talking about pots in the neighborhood of hundreds of dollars.
The law is clear and makes as much sense in 2008 as it did the day it was drafted.