Q&A with Charleston County Schools Superintendent Nancy McGinleyBy Diette Courrégé (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Sunday, August 10, 2008
Charleston County schools Superintendent Nancy McGinley's first year as superintendent was a relatively smooth ride, but that could change this coming year. McGinley, now in her second year as the district's top leader, will have at least three new bosses after this fall's school board election, and she'll have to handle the emotional and controversial issue of recommending schools for closure or consolidation. McGinley sat down with The Post and Courier to reflect on the past and talk about the upcoming school year, which begins Aug. 19. Jump to these questions by clicking on them: -- You've been superintendent for a little more than a year now. What grade would you give yourself? -- What are some of those areas that you want to see improve? -- What are you most excited about for this coming school year? -- But everyone is going to say that. Who isn't going to say that? -- It was earlier. There were people forming teams before they filed. -- Do you think that this election one is any less important than the last one? -- If the results are not what you think they will be, what's your plan of action? -- So if you could design the system, that's the way you'd look to go? -- Biggest accomplishment this past year? -- What's your biggest failure? -- And that would be what you would do differently? -- Anything I haven't asked you that you want to make sure is in this? -- Are you going to be here for the rest of year? *** Q: You've been superintendent for a little more than a year now. What grade would you give yourself? A: I would give myself a B+. I think we've made great strides as a district. We have tremendous internal partnerships with our teachers. We have a lot of avenues for input with principals. We have strong external partnerships with the police department, the mayors, the nonprofit world in terms of the arts roundtable, the literacy roundtable and other groups that are working in support of improvements in the school district. And we've attracted teachers in record numbers. We're really on par to again have a teacher in every classroom this year when we open, so I feel very positive. And we're encouraged by the (preliminary) test results. So I think a B+. We're moving in the right direction. We certainly have other goals that we have not yet begun to show evidence of progress. I know there's room to improve but we're off to a good start. Q: What are some of those areas that you want to see improve? A: The areas I would like to see improve are what we've identified as our key goals, one being closing the achievement gap. We still have not made significant progress. We've made small steps in the right direction, but we haven't made significant progress to close the achievement gap between African American and Hispanic and Caucasian students and that's something we will be working on under our new plan, Charleston Achieving Excellence. We must do a better job. The fact that other school districts are struggling with that same issue doesn't mean we should not be making progress so that's a big concern for me. And along those lines are factors that we must tackle such as the distribution of experienced teachers, and I've talked about that throughout the year. And I think this coming year we must have a concrete plan in place to make sure that we are staffing our schools equitably. Q: What are you most excited about for this coming school year? A: I am most excited about the excellent leadership we have. I feel very, very encouraged and optimistic about the principals that are in the school district now. We've hired some terrific young and enthusiastic and well-qualified principals and we have veteran principals who are starting to see progress. So I'm most excited about the leadership. And secondly, I'm excited about the alignment we have now. We are working in a very purposeful way, in a strategic way so that the district is on the same page. We're rowing in the same direction. We're not having different people doing their own thing, so I'm very excited about the preferred model, meaning the elementary, middle and high school configuration because we're already seeing much more productive meetings and professional development that they can concentrate on the need of that level of schooling. For example, all of the high school principals (today) are with (associate superintendent) Mr. (Lou) Martin at Trident Technical College to talk about partnerships with Trident Tech and career academics and the path ways programs. That's the type of professional development that principals need to make their schools more relevant. So I think the preferred model, the fact that we have our foundation with a great curriculum, and we have great leaders, are three things that we're pretty excited about. A: I hope that voters are paying attention to the elements of good schooling, to what works in public education and are we demonstrating that we know what works and that they'll support candidates who support best practices and who support quality public education. That's what I hope voters will pay attention to. I can not predict nor can I get involved in who's running for the school board. I work for the school board as a whole and I'll continue to work with whoever is elected. A: When I say support public education, we have based our strategic plan on best practices nationally. We know what it takes to make changes and I'm hoping the school board will support that direction. For example, giving schools support and accountability, and they need both. We agree that schools should be held accountable for progress, but they also need support. And they need resources, so I'm hoping the school board will continue to recognize that those two things go hand in hand, that you can't just hold people accountable for high results and not give them the teachers or the extra resources they need. And I also hope the school board members who get elected have an image or belief that we can be a world class school district. We absolutely can be a world class school district because we have great teachers, we have great leaders and in order to do that, we have to work together. We need the school board helping us problem solve and promoting excellence and supporting excellence. A: I definitely hope we have board members who believe education is a common good, that education benefits the community. Q: But everyone is going to say that. Who isn't going to say that? A: And that to have a high quality education, we have to have resources. We can not continue to neglect certain important parts of our educational system and not give them the funding that they need. When I say to be a world class school system, we need fine arts in our schools. We need athletic programs that have trainers and qualified coaches. These things take money, and so part of the role of the school board is to help secure the resources it takes to run a high performing school system. When I say caring about the quality of education — there are benefits to having an effective world class school system and there are also responsibilities that board members have to accept. A: If you have goals to be a great school system, you have to recognize that it's going to take resources and I think there are people who will recognize that. A: I don't know. There's a big national election that is consuming a lot of people's imagination and time and I think that we're not as close yet to the election. I don't remember when it started getting more public. Q: It was earlier. There were people forming teams before they filed. A: I don't know. I don't want to predict that it's not going to get more controversial. I will say that we're getting some positive public support for what's going on in the system. Enrollment is up next year by 450 students for the first time in five years. We're seeing an increase instead of a decline. I think people are coming back to the public school system and recognizing that they can get good value for their tax dollars. Q: Do you think that this election one is any less important than the last one? A: No, I think every school board election is very critical because it could possibly impact the continuity of the progress we've seen. School districts, especially large school districts, do not change on the dime. It takes a couple of years to build the foundation that will create the kind of significant changes that we need to see here. I think this board election is critical to enable us to continue that positive progress. A: Well, this year, test results 2008 are my first results as superintendent. I still maintain the same thing. We must see a decrease in the number of below average and unsatisfactory schools because that is probably the most public indicator of whether we're making progress. There certainly are other indicators. The fact that SAT scores are up, scholarships are up are other indicators that there is positive growth taking place. But that is a big symbolic and public measure, and I do believe the 2008 results will be moving in the right direction. I cannot say how many fewer or how many good or excellent schools. We're confident we're going to see some positive results this year. Some of the changes I already have put in place are things that were designed to get more focused — the elementary, middle and high school districts, increased classroom observation by principals, the changes in leadership that I have been pushing for the last three years are designed to put an excellent principal in every school, the voluntary teacher transfer initiative we started and many other things that have gotten underway — all are designed to focus on improving the effectiveness of the instruction. Q: If the results are not what you think they will be, what's your plan of action? A: Obviously, we would have to do a major reassessment of our strategic plan. We would have to look at is the coherent curriculum. Is the content we're teaching the right content? I believe it is. It's based on the state standards but we'd have to look at every aspect of what we're doing. Why aren't we making progress? We have developed a set of strategies that are based on best practices, and we've seen some incremental gains over the last couple of years. If the big indicator — unsatisfactory and below average schools — do not decrease, we really have to reexamine what we're doing and maybe think about ways to intensify the support at those schools more than ever before. We already are weighting resources in that direction, even in the budget difficulty we have, we continue to put additional resources into the high poverty schools. It may be time to just totally intensify the work there and find the way to fund one of the things that I proposed last year and that we did not have the money to fund — the extended school year. ... We have seen preliminary test scores at the high school level and I'm cautiously optimistic. A: Well, I'm not prepared to name schools. We're prepared to present back to the school board within the next four weeks an approach and a strategy. And that approach, obviously, has to be tied to per pupil expenditures — how much are we spending. Because the catalyst for this has been concern about the budget and that we don't have the same number of students we had five years ago, why do we need the same number of schools. In bringing back a strategy, what I want to do is not just simply say let's close schools A, B and C, and simply bus the kids to another school or redraw the attendance boundaries. I want to see if there are some other creative ways of approaching this and that's what our staff has been talking about. And there are some other creative ways. There are ideas that we can put on the table that may end up being more effective and less costly. I'll give an example. Instead of having an elementary, middle and high school configuration, we're talking about a K-12 campus that does not replicate three administrative offices, three sets of secretaries, three sets of bookkeepers, three sets of data clerks. You could on one campus have a K-12 configuration, just like they have at some of the private schools that are highly successful so for that for fewer dollars, we may have a better program. We want to come back not just with a simplistic, "This school is going to be closed," but how can we be more creative and effective, even in the face of consolidation. A: There's certainly schools that we know have high per pupil expenditures because they're so small. And so obviously, there are certain schools that are going to come to anybody's mind. But what we want to present back to the board and what the board has the right to decide is what are the competing interests. Once you make a decision, it's going to impact a community, and there are competing interests. What are we going to do with the buildings? And what are the future growth projections so that we're not making decisions for the short sighted, in terms of we'll consolidate this school now but if we sell the building or give the building away to a community in another 10 years, we're going to need that building. This is another one of those complicated issues that we're going to present back to the board. Here's a direction that we believe we could take because they've asked us to come back with a school consolidation plan, and we have spent time thinking about it. But we want to put out the big picture issues as well. We don't just want to say in the next five years, we don't see any need for these buildings. We want to think beyond five years because the board ultimately has to be a forward thinking body so they're not handicapping the school district in the future. ... Our goal has to be are we giving these children a fair opportunity to learn, and putting a child on a bus for an hour or two hours a day has to have an impact on whether they're getting a fair opportunity to learn. A: When you consolidate schools, you're going to have fewer buildings. There is going to be an impact, and that's why some thing that staff is going to make a recommendation and the board is going to tell us whether they support those recommendations. There are some big issues that we have to wrestle with this year. One is school consolidation. That will be a very emotional issue because no one wants their school to be closed, even if we propose changes that could ultimately create a better educational environment. I've done a lot of research on this. I've looked at the cost of private school, the pros and cons of private school, and have done focus groups with private school parents who say what works in a K-12 environment. So we're coming back with some exciting information, but that doesn't mean people are going to say this is a good thing and I endorse it. A: I'm a big supporter of choice for parents, and I think choices can be created within the public school system. One of the exciting conversations we're having is with a group, Carolina Preparatory Academy, that initially was a charter school. We have been having a series of very exciting meetings with this group about being a hybrid — not being a charter, not being a regular public school but being a public-private partnership school that would have some autonomy, some ability to have a theme (they're talking about coastal ecosystem) and how could this be a hybrid. We've had many meetings about doing this. (State Education Superintendent) Dr. (Jim) Rex has been involved. We're fairly close to having this group come and present to the school board because before these discussions can go any further, the school board would need to hear about them. Because the group that is interested and I both see the value in the theme they've created and ideally they would grow into a K-12 school. And this particular group also sees the value of working with the public school system and not having to take on all the responsibility of become a charter school. I see this school system in the next five years being a portfolio of different types of schools with different governance structures. I'm not fearful of charter schools. If there is a group of independent people who have the wherewithal to take on that very significant responsibility, then they can be become viable charter. Everybody has heard me say many times how much I admire the East Cooper Montessori Charter School. It's a success story. We're learning from them, we're going to try to replicate what they've done. There are other charter schools that are not success stories. We are committed to creating a set of schools that work for children. And I'm not wedded to the notion that they all must be under the district's control. In fact, we just gave 14 schools earned autonomous status so that they have freedom to make more decisions on their own because they've earned it. A: It certainly is a concern when we're on a fixed budget, which we have been for the last couple of years, to have to take on more expenses. Until the charter school law is cost neutral to the parent district, I think it will be a concern. I'm comfortable with charter schools, and I'm comfortable with magnet, partial magnet and hybrids and autonomous because I think it really shows that we're trying to be responsive to the public, that we're trying to be receptive to the idea that there can be more local control of schools. A: When we proposed the ideas of the neighborhood planning teams we proposed that those school that get approved would get an additional two full-time positions and a small start up budget, about $40,000, to start up those schools. That's not a tremendous amount for them, but it gives them a little bit of additional support and some of our successful magnet schools don't get more than that. Jennie Moore Elementary gets one additional teaching position. Ashley River Creative Arts gets very little in terms of additional support. But what they have is they've utilized their existing resources in a more focused and creative and purposeful way, and so it's not always about more money. It's about a vision, it's about parent support and we already are seeing new levels of enthusiasm in many of these schools that have neighborhood planning teams. And another big push that I am not only inviting, I am just almost — I don't want to say begging — but I am hoping we do see more public-private partnerships in terms of resources. Because if a company, if a major company, or a law firm or a nonprofit organization sees the value in some of these schools, they can bring resources. The group that we're working with on this, they've got lots of credibility with Project Oceania and lots of potential to get major grants from the National Science Foundation. These partnerships draw in additional dollars, and we could talk about examples of public private partnership schools in Philadelphia, where the Constitution Center now has a high school and the Franklin Institute, which is a big science museum, has a high school. They bring resources, and that's the type of thing we're hoping will happen here. A: Charleston has been treading water for the last couple years in terms of the amount of resources we get from the state. And what I'd like the state to consider while they are helping the very poor rural districts is the percentage of poverty we have here. I'd like to see that it's not just the rural school districts that get additional weighted support for high poverty students, but that we also get additional weighted support because everybody recognizes that it costs more to educate a child who comes in with learning needs from the get go. We know we can educate that child, but we may need smaller classes, we may need an extend school year, we may need more intense tutoring, and those things cost money. With the resources, all children can achieve at high levels. Without the resources, we're going to continue to have an uneven playing field. I hope the state will recognize that children who live in poverty exist in wealthy counties as well as in the rural counties. A: On the surface, yes. It would be. When I studied funding formulas in Australia, that's the way they do it there. The money definitely follows the child. That, to me, seems much more logical because as we've already talked about here in Charleston, we have high poverty children who come from high poverty homes and the Title 1 money (for low-income students) doesn't follow them. So we have 600 children who qualify for free and reduced meals at Wando High School, but they don't get one cent of Title 1 money because they're at Wando High School (which is not a Title 1 school). Whereas if they were at Burke High or North Charleston High, they would get additional money. They're at the same poverty level. I would support an approach like you just described. Q: So if you could design the system, that's the way you'd look to go? A: Yes but there has to be a base line. It couldn't be so volatile that one year, a school is getting one amount and the next year it's getting this amount. You'd have to some base line, but a weighted student formula is what many progressive thinkers have been proposing for a number of years here and in other districts around the country. ... It does seem logical and yet there are people who think every child should get the same thing. If it costs $100 to educate you, we should spend $100 on me when I might be an English language learner or I might have special needs and it's going to cost more. ... Even though they are going to start talking about this this year, we do not believe we're going to see much of any change for the next budget year. So that's why our school board has asked us to come back with a school consolidation plan. We'll also be working on our selling of excess property. A: My focus is on instruction, and I have no interest in that having any kind of an impact. I have a job to do, they have a job to do and I'm inter in putting that behind us and focusing on the work. I truly am. I feel it took more time than I ever would have wanted it take and more attention and that's not what we're here for. We're here to focus on instruction and making schools better. And the saddest part about it is that it overshadowed so many of the good, positive things that have happened this year. And that truly is why I did not wanted it to be a public media issue. I wanted it to be handled behind closed doors. A: I would say meet the new principals. Meet the people who we have just hired for the downtown schools and watch what's going to happen this year. We have very, very top notch leaders in the downtown schools, and we have two appointed principals so far. One was a principal of the year from Georgia who just came to James Simmons and the other was Perren Peterson, who was the associate principal at Fraser Elementary. We're going to have a third recommendation for Sanders-Clyde Elementary at the next board meeting, and we have an extremely talented interim principal at Memminger Elementary who just came to us from Berkeley County. We're really very excited about the caliber of leaders who have joined (Mitchell Elementary Principal) Dirk Bedford in the downtown schools. I would say we have been deliberate in seeking out great people to lead these schools, and I truly don't know what the specific charge is in terms of neglect or ignoring the needs of downtown because I think the community has rallied around Burke High, such as the mayor, the College of Charleston and the district. We continue to put resources into Burke. We saw progress last year, even though they didn't move out of unsatisfactory. They did move up with .4 growth. We think they're going to move up again. We are seeing progress. I don't know exactly what the source is except that I do know there are historic issues of mistrust and broken promises because I heard that from Day 1 when I came here. I heard it from the head of the District 20 constituent board the first week I was here four and a half years ago about broken promises to downtown. But I would like to know on a more current level what they consider broken promises at this point. I'd like to work with them. I hope they'll work in a proactive way and not just be against everything because I think at some point you have to be for something and not against everything. Q: Biggest accomplishment this past year? A: It's hard for me to say because I don't have the test results yet, but I think the biggest accomplishment was to truly get everyone on the same page that the "victory is in the classroom." That this is what we're about. This is where we need to be looking. I feel that both principal leaders and district level leaders get that now. I really do believe that everybody, from (Chief Financial Officer) Mike Bobby to the Office of Communication, that everybody knows if we don't make progress in the classroom, it doesn't matter how many buses get kids on time or how many positive news articles or how many balanced budgets. The changes have to occur in the classroom, and the rest of us are here to support that effort. I think the biggest accomplishment is to begin to see a culture change that puts the focus on supporting teachers and making teachers the most important people in the district. Q: What's your biggest failure? A: I think that there were a couple principal appointments that I may not have been as happy with as others. There were a couple of principal decisions that we made last summer that we were optimistic about that didn't pan out, and I feel badly about those decisions. Because when you change a principal in the middle of the year, when you have to change a principal or a principal leaves, it's disruptive. Just making sure to whatever degree that is humanly possible that that principal is the right fit for that school is something I have given as much time and attention to as possible. Because there were two principalships that did not make it through the full year. Those were disruptive to those schools and hurtful to those schools. Q: And that would be what you would do differently? A: As much as humanly possible. Sometimes you check people's credentials, they interview well and you think they are the right fit for those schools and either something happens ... The most important job I have is to put an excellent principal in every school because the principal sets the tone. Even though there are committees, ultimately, I have to say it's Candidate A versus Candidate B and I take that responsibility seriously. I feel responsibility when a principal doesn't work out, and I should feel responsible. I will continue not just to take it seriously, but to look to see — and we're working on some of this — if there are ways of predicting who is the best match. If there are selection protocols that we can use to help make sure this person is a good match for this school. Q: Anything I haven't asked you that you want to make sure is in this? A: One of the things I do feel that we've made some good in roads on is changing the public perception of the schools. I really feel the message is getting out, not just through the traditional media, the newspapers and TV. I feel good that the outreach methods that (Executive Director of Planning, Marketing, & Communications) Elliot (Smalley) has put in place, the quality of publications, the ParentLink (automated phone system) has been a tremendous tool for us. I mean tremendous. Our principals get to personally call and trouble shoot. We've really been conscious of how do we outreach, how frequently do we contact people, sharing more information and also jus things we've done — answering e-mails that come into the superintendent's office, making sure we get back to people right away, showing people that we care about them. Those are little things that a lot of the public don't know that we've done that make the culture of the district begin to seem a little bit different. We have "Teacher of the Month" where we go and give them a plant and put them on the Web site and tell their stories. I have the "Breakfast with the Superintendent" where employees get to come and we talk about why are you nominated who are you. And that's not just for teachers. It's for secretaries or mechanics or anybody. They get nominated by somebody and they get a little recognition. The fact that we now send out the weekly desk letter from the superintendent. We capture what happened this week, things I was involved in, or things that the school did so anybody on our mailing list or anybody who comes to the Web site can kind of get a snapshot of things that are going on. We get to feature people in ways that they have never been featured before. This is starting to make people feel that their good deeds are being recognized, that they're being valued, that they're kids are being valued. And this has been not just a deliberate strategy on my part. It's really been something we've talked about at the executive team level, and we try to think of ways to make people feel that they want to be here and that they are valued. And I want to continue to do that. And even in this speech (to district administrators and principals), as I talked about our accomplishments for last year, I asked people to stand and be recognized. ... Because being a principal is a lonely job. It really is. In education, you don't get a lot of accolades. We're trying to change that because that's not something that costs a lot of money. It's just an attitude, and it's a recognition that we're in the people business and we want to keep good people and want to treat them well so they want to teach here. And then they'll treat parents well and treat the kids well. I feel good about where we're going with this, and the fact that we've come down on core values that are things that I can really promote. Because I really believe in them: results, access and partnerships. It seems simple, but it took us six months to get what does that mean and does that represent what we're trying got achieve. Q: Are you going to be here for the rest of year? A: I certainly hope so. That's my plan. |
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This article has 5 comment(s)
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Posted by karmann on August 10, 2008 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The fact is that CCSD has a school that goes from K-12 and has not been very supportive of it. This was made more apparent when no one from CCSD attended the 2008 graduation. Words are good, but words backed up by the promises made are better. CCSD also has to realize that not every child will go to college. We need to re-start the trade school program so that those kids who are not making academically can at least come out with a job skill. CCSD could also partner with TTC with their certificate and GED programs.
Posted by shoelaces on August 10, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I liked most of what I read here. I think McGinley is on the right track and is working for change. Last year was productive for me and for my students. I am looking forward to seeing just what we can do to improve our schools and our image. Most importantly, I want to see our kids excel.
karmann....I love the idea of trade/vocational opportunities. I agree with you that all students are not going to go to college and that is OK. I think we are doing a disservice to those students who ar not meant for higher education. But we do need to offer some sort of training for these kids and give them an opportunity to become productive citizens once they are finished with whatever level of education they do reach.
Middle schools should be where these programs start and then carry over into high school. That is where we are losing so many kids. Middle schools need to be a focus for our CCSD leaders.
Posted by belovedbliff on August 10, 2008 at noon (Suggest removal)
Dr. McSinley is sure a spin doctor. Regarding her "broken promises" from the downtown school spiel, where do we begin with the list of them?
Burke Middle School does not even have a viable library--let's start off with that one or how the ratio was supposed to be 1 to 15 and it wasn't.
Posted by mlm on August 10, 2008 at 11:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Downtown is for real address verifications at Buist. Downtown is for a viable charter school for math and science. Downtown is for a comprehensive and highly competative vocational program at Burke. Downtown is for equitable funding and staffing of schools like Charleston Progressive so they can be truly on a par with Buist. Downtown is for a county school board and administration that doesn't paint downtown into its own historical cartoon of what downtown is, but only in their imaginations.
Nancy McGinley is mistaken in saying that downtown is always against progress. She has it backwards. CCSD and most of the recent occupants of her office are the ones against progress when it come to downtown public schools. More and more downtown residents have been learning to sing in unison for progress for years. She just doesn't want to recognize the tune. She most definately isn't listening to their refrain.
Posted by District20Dad on August 13, 2008 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Until the charter school law is cost neutral to the parent district, I think it will be a concern. I'm comfortable with charter schools, and I'm comfortable with magnet, partial magnet and hybrids and autonomous because I think it really shows that we're trying to be responsive to the public, that we're trying to be receptive to the idea that there can be more local control of schools."
In other words, I fight charter schools tooth and nail because they remove funds from my control; but they are so popular I will never admit to the fact that I do everything possible to kill them.