S.C. could provide template for public prayerSenate approves bill to set guidelines for religious displays, invocations By Yvonne Wenger (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Friday, April 25, 2008
State legislation would give local governments guidance on including religious texts and prayer in public buildings — constitutionally. The full Senate approved a bill Thursday that would lay out the ground rules for prayer at public meetings. Meanwhile, a panel of senators debated a bill that would allow references to God, a deity or a higher power to be displayed alongside historic documents in public monuments. Supporters say the bills — part of movement that started in the South several years ago — meet constitutional muster while critics argue that the templates would give hometown councils and school boards a false sense of security. "Religion and faith are such an important part of the lives of many people," said Sen. Larry Grooms, R-Bonneau. "To say you aren't allowed to display it almost says there's something wrong with your belief." The concern, though, is government favoring one religion over another, or diminishing the value of non-believers, said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "It makes some people feel like second- class citizens, and the Constitution does not permit that," Lynn said of the legislation and similar efforts across the country. In general, he said, the bills give local governments too broad of latitude to pray and put up religious monuments. "This does not insulate them from legal challenges," Lynn said. "In fact, it may have the opposite effect." If state legislators think otherwise, Lynn said they are "whistling in the dark." The legislation that would allow religious displays passed the House in March 2007. It's purpose, as listed in the bill, is to educate the public by establishing the so-called Foundations of American Law and Government displays. Each display would need to include 12 items, in the same size, including copies of the Ten Commandments, portions of the Constitution, the national motto "In God We Trust" and Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech. The Senate subcommittee that reviewed the bill Thursday postponed its approval while the constitutionality is reviewed further, said Sen. Chip Campsen, R-Isle of Palms. "It's not really about religious displays, it's about historical documents instrumental to our government," Campsen said. "It will give schools and governments a template they can use that's already been vetted for constitutional muster." The key, Campsen said, is for the display to have a secular purpose, according to a June 2005 ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that determined a public display of the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the Texas Capitol building was constitutional because the monument honored the nation's legal system, not its religious orientation. Campsen authored the bill that sets out guidelines for prayer, or invocation, at public meetings. To satisfy the legal thresholds, he said public bodies must either elect a chaplain, allow officials to give the invocation in a rotating order or send out invitations to religious leaders in the community to come and provide the prayer. If the government wants to pray to a specific deity, Campsen said they would need to consult independent legal counsel because case law is a little less settled in that area. It is clear that the invocation cannot be used to proselytize or disparage another religion. The Senate gave the bill final approval Thursday and sent it to the House. Oran P. Smith, president of the Palmetto Family Council, a faith-based public policy research foundation, said the bills have been thoroughly vetted and that he is confident they would withstand any legal challenges. The Legislature's approach in both cases is "right down the middle," Smith said. He sees the bills as encouragement for those who feel that their faith might have been somehow diminished by government actions over the years. "We maybe went too far, and this can get back more to the middle," Smith said. Reach Yvonne Wenger at ywenger@postandcourier.com or 803-799-9051. |
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Comments
This article has 63 comment(s)
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 7:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It's pretty incredible that religious zealots would openly lie and say this is about law or history in order to force their religious dogma onto everyone else. This is about Chip Campsens religion, period. Christians do this crap constantly...I guess they learned about hiding true intentions in sheep's clothing from their Sunday school class. Freaking hypocrites.
Posted by devilsadvocate77 on April 25, 2008 at 7:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Please tell me there is nothing left to do in SC government that they have time to sit around and worry about this type of stuff. More religion infringing on government. Elected legislators waste our time with this fluff instead addressing real issues. How about our legislators spend time addressing our crime and overcrowded jails, poorest education system in the nation, most unhealthy state in the nation, poorest roads...need I go on. No, they would rather address the easy issues. I participate in the election process to elect legislators to work for the people of South Carolina. Stop addressing these goody two shoes issues and GET TO WORK!!!!
Posted by ForPnC on April 25, 2008 at 7:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh snort! The Flying Spaghetti Monster... I hadn't heard that one in years! LOL!
Posted by Pols101 on April 25, 2008 at 8:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yep, this ain't gonna work! The non-intellectual legislator is hard at work, wasting time and our money.
Posted by theronce on April 25, 2008 at 8:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I do not need my elected friends and neighbors to give me permission to pray to God. Of course, when they are goofing off like this, then there is less chance that they will enact any more oppressive legislation.
Posted by oldglory on April 25, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
For the first time, I think I'm in agreement with all posts! This is the 2nd time I've totally agreed with JohnQ!! (Am I OK??)
SC is still in the dark ages :(
Posted by Early on April 25, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Major (minor) my johnson,
I'm glad you mentioned the word freak in your comment because dude, I saw your pictures on your website and you are one freaky looking mofo. The only thing that came to mind when I saw you in overhauls was the famous movie were "squeal like a pig boy" comes to mind. And what’s the deal naming your site "flaming (well it won’t let me put that word in but same as a cigarette)". I knew by your post your some kind of freak of nature!
To the story, like it or not religious artifacts, battles, sayings are part of our history and the history of many countries. I think what they are trying to do is include these artifacts and such as part of history and not have to worry about the atheist trying to sue them. I believe a lot of idiots like the homosapien I mentioned above don't understand the intention of the founding fathers, in one hand we have separation of state and church, in the other we have our founding philosophy hence the mention of God in all we stand for. If that offends you, find some other place to live, try a Muslim country and see how you like that one. I happen to be a part of both generations in which prayer in school, pledge of allegiance to flag was a daily thing and I see how we are after all of this has been removed. Guess which way is better!
Posted by dmwallac on April 25, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh my FSM!!!
Never in a million years would I expect to see a reference to the FSM in here. It's always good for a few laughs. Thanks, JohnQ. You made my day!
Posted by Larz13 on April 25, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
All this an no poker...
Posted by ColdBeer on April 25, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by theronce on April 25, 2008 at 8:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I do not need my elected friends and neighbors to give me permission to pray to God.
Very well said, theronce. Why do so many people NOT get this? If you want to make your god part of every minute of your day... do so.
Just don't use tax payer money to do so and don't force me to have your god in any part of my day.
Don't allow a situation to develop where those that believe differently than you are treated unfairly because of their beliefs.
If you are a religious person, I hope your beliefs make you happy. Just remember, not every one feels the same way you do and no one should be forced to contribute to, or be bombard by, your religious beliefs.
As far as the "history" angle. There is no single thing in the world that has had a greater affect on history than good old raunchy sex. Sex even shapes most religious beliefs. Are the law makers also considering placing homage’s to sex along side any religious displays?
Posted by archdude on April 25, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MajorJohnson,
Based upon Early's response, are you the Kentucky Headhunter looking dude at "f.a.g.g.o.t.sinthefire.com" (without the .s in between the letters)? It says it is by a land owner in SC who has the moniker MajorJohnson.
Just checking, there could be multiple large richards around (which is what I think you were going after with your name).
Posted by LowcountryMoose on April 25, 2008 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sponsors: Senators Campsen, Fair, Bryant, Vaughn, Hawkins, Alexander, Grooms, Sheheen, Setzler, Cromer, McConnell, Land, Verdin, Peeler, Hayes, Ritchie, Anderson, Thomas, Scott, Martin, Knotts, Ryberg, Ceips, O'Dell, McGill and Malloy.
I bet this list would shorten up a bit if Rev. Wright was the guy delivering the invocation to start the public meetings.
These legislative throwbacks ought to be tarred, feathered, and impeached for wasting time on this unconstitutional crap legislation.
Posted by Thomas1776 on April 25, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Our elected leaders have lost their minds. Federal courts have already ruled on this and these idiots in Columbia are inviting lawsuits out the yin-yang. And who will ultimately pay for the legal cost? ALL OF US!
Shhheeeeeesh. We have a bunch of mentals in the House and the Senate! We have got to replace them all!
Posted by mac0cm4 on April 25, 2008 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ColdBeer has it right on the money. If you want to worship a potted plant, then that's your deal - don't try and effect your religion or anything about it on me and we'll get on just fine.
SC continues to just amaze me how badly they want to tap dance along this line - first Dorchester District Two forcing taxpayers to pay for an 'elective' religious class (I can't remember the exact name they chose to skirt the law) on the guise of 'history' and now the state legislature is doing the same thing. When will they learn? The country was founded by those who did not want religious persecution - well wake up - endorsing any religion(s) is effectively persecuting the religions not chosen.
Oh - they can use the Prez. Bush method, tie it to Homeland Security or Sept 11 and then the Constitution doesn't matter anymore.
Posted by Thomas1776 on April 25, 2008 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And in the meantime, we have a few hundred thousand illegal mexicans running wild and free in SC and being intentionally hired illegally.
Posted by Early on April 25, 2008 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You are correct archdude. Next time I hope he at least takes a bath before the photo shoots.
Scary to think there really is people like that out there.
Posted by Early on April 25, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Comments taken from our constitution:
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the
States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the
YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty
seven and of the Independence of the United States of
America the Twelfth In Witness whereof We have hereunto
Amendmentî€ I.î€
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging
the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right
of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the
People have twisted our constitution to fit THEIR believes or non believes and we end up with comments like the ones today. Everything about us has to do with God.
In God we trust on our currency, which represents us to the rest of the world.
Our national anthem, remember the words?
Put your hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth, the first legal step in our judicial system.
Our states should have the choice that represents the majority of the peoples choice in matters like this.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Very nice, no way to defend forcing your religion on everyone else so you fall back to veiled subterfuge and personal invective. I happen to have a chemical engineering degree and have been a respected database and application programmer for over 20 years. I own my own business and work from my own home and have clients from England to Australia.
And apparently neither of you know that a fa.ggot is a bundle of wood used for building fires. Care to show your South Carolina educated ignorance any further?
This bill is half standing on a soapbox yelling see how religious I am and half an attempt to proselytize to people who the sponsors think probably don't worship right. It has zero to do with history or law, that's nothing but a subterfuge and a bald faced Cheshire cat lie.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Our national motto was E Pluribus Unum for 175 years, and was changed to In God We Trust by religious zealots. The pledge of allegiance did not reference god on purpose, so that non-believers could also pledge to the flag. Again, changed by religious zealots. Don't try using those to show that America is all about God, since the founders and the country was perfectly happy without them longer than they've been used and both were changed within my lifetime. The change to the motto and the pledge were specifically to push the idea that we are not E Pluribus Unum. I never prayed in school, and my mother (raised in North Carolina and Florida) says she never prayed in school.
Year of our Lord was how the Christian calendar was differentiated from other calendars. It is not a religious statement any more than A.D is. It is the only mention of God, Lord, Jesus, Creator or any other such word in the entire constitution, including all amendments. If the founders had been so insistent that we were a Christian nation they certainly would have mentioned it somewhere in there. The man who is known as the father of the constitution (James Madison) specifically feared the mixing of religion with government and stated that it would lead to the corruption of both.
Posted by ColdBeer on April 25, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Early, I respect your beliefs and opinions, but everything about me does not have to do with god. Do I say the Pledge of Allegiance (the version with one nation under god), I bow my head with others pray, I take an oath to tell the truth that does not involve me swearing to god (if I remember from my younger days in reading the bible, it said not to swear to anyone or anything. I may be wrong... it's been many years). I do these things out of respect for others and their beliefs.
As an agnostic individual, it would be nice to have that same respect returned from those same people. Seldom does that happen. I'm expected to tow the line when it comes to supporting religious beliefs of others, but those same people refuse to accept that someone may not share their same beliefs and they refuse to do anything to support or even allow differing beliefs.
Our government may have been founded by mostly christian individuals, but those christian individuals recognized that not everyone shares the same beliefs and they ensured that our government stay neutral on the subject for just that reason. The government has to support all Americans in the same way. It doesn't matter if they are christian, muslim, atheist or agnostic. The government has to stay neutral. It cannot do that unless it stays 100% neutral in all ways.
There is no reason for government to get involved in religion. We have churches for that purpose.
Posted by archdude on April 25, 2008 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
majorJohnson
I know it is a pile of sticks and I was not educated in South Carolina...so, go beat on a drum somewhere else. I did not say a bad thing about you...just that you look like FRED (the drummer) from the Kentucky Headhunters. Do a Google search and you may find your long lost brother! Then again, you may once again tell us of the dangers of water.
With that post you surely showed that you are a big richard or maybe simply a richard cranium.
Posted by archdude on April 25, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I love it when people think they are clever. Duh, richard cranium, you are not going to burn homosexuals at the stake...
Posted by Early on April 25, 2008 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CB, thanks for the post and i agree with some of it however,
I don't think government at the state level should not have the choice to display religious artifacts along side of other artifacts nor should the government refuse the right of those who are religious. A moment of silence as it was called later in my school years was removed by the overzealous anti faith group.
major my johnson,
having a meth lab does not make you a chemical engineer and you or your mother don't remember prayer days because you both were too stoned. Your post don't even deserve a response
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 12:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry bout that arch. I misunderstood your post. I'm not at all familiar with the Kentucky Headhunters, but I looked them up and see what you mean.
Posted by Elmer_J_Fudd on April 25, 2008 at 12:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
major
Why would you ever want to mess with MSSQL or asp. Those are horrible.
Posted by mac0cm4 on April 25, 2008 at 12:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ahh, must love the personal attacks that aren't even related to the discussion at hand.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 1:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I actually like asp and mssql elmer. I also do php, javascript, vb, c#, c, c++, mysql, access and oracle.
Per early, I'm thinking that he's probably at work getting paid to surf the net, not that his employer knows that's what he's paying early to do. He's a fine example of why it's so dangerous to mix religion and government. They are both corrupted.
Posted by Early on April 25, 2008 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
minor johnson, oh man, you are sooo right, my God, you have figured me out whoas me. Dork!
It's dangerous to mix meth and crack, you should think about that!
Squeal boy, squeal.
Posted by archdude on April 25, 2008 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
majorJohnson,
How are you with ActionScript? After grad school I taught myself (with the help of O'reily publishing)PHP, XHTML, javascript, CSS, Flash, MySql, and a couple others. I try religiously to stay away from anything having to do with MicroSoft...horrible company although the Gates foundation does great deeds.
Early...a hair style and beard with overalls does not make a person anything particular. You know, you can't judge a book by its cover. In some parts of the world that is how you dress for church.
Posted by Early on April 25, 2008 at 1:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
archdude, first you said the word "religiously" in your comment to bonehead. And dude, I don't know anybody who goes to church looking like that. The guy is a freak.
Anyway, there is beer to drink and I'm sure minor johnson has to prepare for his pig poking party tonight!
Out!!!!!
Posted by archdude on April 25, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeah,
Early just did his Ryan Seacrest impersonation. Man, American Idol must be reaching the masses.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't really do any flash arch. For my web clients I do mainly applications programming, forms, shopping carts, back ends, paypal, things like that, as well as dynamic pages like catalogs and some css menus. I also do desktop and network applications, but of course those don't use flash.
http://carolinacomputerservices.com/resu...
Posted by SCdeacinNYC on April 25, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I can sum my whole argument on this article up in one statement:
Considering that we have about 15 other pressing issues of importance to worry about in our state, and I don't think religious freedom or "praying in public" is one of them, our legislators efforts seriously need to be focused elsewhere. This is our problem now, diversion from what is important in favor of "silly" bills such as this. The government in no way shape or form has "diminished" my faith. The government is many things but it does not hold the power to diminish my spiritual beliefs and faith, it is supposed to protect religious freedom and keep its head out of religious matters.
Posted by greyrider on April 25, 2008 at 2:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SCdeacinNYC - To an extent, I agree with you. Our legislators shouldn't have to waste time on issues like this. But, unfortunately, people like Barry Lynn have created what should be a non-situation. It isn't an issue of whether or not anyone's faith is diminished. I have noticed throughout my life that anti-christian bigotry has become more and more accepted because of these ridiculous restrictions put on Christians. If you think Christians have equal freedom of speech in this country with everyone else, you're not paying attention. No one should be able to force their beliefs on someone else, but if someone wants to pray, they should be allowed. Christians DO NOT have the right to pray whenever, wherever they choose. When it comes to the idea of pray, don't pray, believe, don't believe, everyone should have equal rights. They don't.
Posted by archdude on April 25, 2008 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I know Early is OUT...gone I guess and not out of the closet (just kidding), but with reference to cloths and hair think about what the historical representations of Jesus have been. Long hair, a beard, and a tunic...old fashioned overalls. You just cannot judge a book by its cover...you have to wait for the statements.
Abe Lincoln was a country guy, I am/was a country guy, and people can look however the hell they want without it effecting how they can perform. Good grief, if I go a week without shaving I bet some folks would think I was coming in the store to get ready to rob them or take their children to hide under my bed. We really need to wake up a little.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry bout that allwoman. I'll try to stay on topic for you.
SCdeac has it right, but you're missing the point of this. It's not to keep people from losing faith, it's about 1)Campsen and the other sponsors letting people see how Christian they are and 2)proselytizing the faith to those who don't worship as Campsen feels they should. Remember, people who support school prayer aren't worried about their kids prayer habits, they already control those. It's all about making other peoples kids pray, because they probably aren't being properly exposed to the Christian religion.
Per early, I'm not the one who's leaving work to go drink beer before 2 o'clock. I'm also not the one calling people who disagree with me names, and I'm not the one who was on the side of a thief because the place he robbed was a porn store open on Sunday. You were not only on the side of the thief but you said "too bad it wasn't more serious!" and admitted that it would have been fine with you if the clerk had been injured or the store had a great loss. I'm not even a Christian, but I suspect I give a better impression in my bibs and beard than you do in your Christian righteousness.
As I said before, early is a great example of what you can expect when we mix religion and government.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 3:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Per greyrider, if you think you feel left out as a Christian, you should try it as a Jew, Wiccan or atheist. I can certainly give you pages of reading on people who have been treated poorly or marginalized in this country specifically because they are not Christians, sometimes because they don't participate in these town hall pre-meeting prayers and thus stand out as a non-Christian. If you feel the need to pray about a town meeting, feel free to do so before you go in, don't expect the rest of the citizens in the room to have to participate.
One of the holes this is going to open up is that once you allow this can't restrict it to the kinds of prayers you want, you open yourself up to Wiccan prayers, Muslim prayers, Hindu prayers, maybe even an atheist non-prayer. Of course, that will lead to more cries that the Christian faith is being attacked (the store clerk didn't say merry christmas to me! That's a direct attack on my faith!!)
Careful what you wish for, you may get it.
Posted by LowcountryMoose on April 25, 2008 at 3:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Religions come and religions go,
not unlike a street corner ho.
Posted by SCdeacinNYC on April 25, 2008 at 3:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think I wasn't clear with my comments. I think there is a prevailing fear-mongering feeling of "they are taking our faith away from us" and what I mean to respond to that is "are you serious???" The prevalence of religion especially "Christianity" of the most puritan form in our nation is astounding. People like my old friend Early wish to shout to the moutaintops about how our country was founded on principles of Christianity and God are buying into a huge fallacy about the founding of our nation. Tyranny of the majority was one of the greatest fears of our "founding fathers", and separation of church and state was one of their rallying calls. "Under God" was mostly added as our motto and in the pledge and on money during the Cold War, where religious zealots somehow thought adding that America needed to re-define its religious identity.
I say that the idea of fearmongering at the end of the article about people's faith's being diminished by the government is both ridiculous (how can the government diminish your faith, faith is personal NOT public and the government is a public entity) and ironic (ironic, because if anything, faith has had an over-played role in the past decade of this country).
By the way, it's so nice to be back on the boards here. :)
Posted by greyrider on April 25, 2008 at 3:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
majorjohnson, if a local governing body wishes to open a meeting with a Christian prayer, they should be allowed. If there is a Jewish member, and he or she wishes to add their own prayer, it should be allowed. Same for anyone. I don't see it as opening a Pandora's Box. I see it as freedom. If two or three prayers are said and an atheist wishes to state for the record that he disputes the existence of God, he or she should be allowed to state that. If this kind of freedom existed, I believe it would lead to less tension between different believers and between believers and non-believers. Everyone should have freedom and we should all learn to peacefully co-exist.
Posted by bkeelin on April 25, 2008 at 3:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There can be no more important work than to re-establish the freedom of religion for Christians. Time and time again God haters have pushed and pushed to take God out of everything, and off of everything and put Christians in a corner and tell them not to get involved in politics. The overwhelming majority of our founding fathers were Christians and the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were based on Biblical principles. so many people don't understand the dependence upon God our founding fathers had and our PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS have tried in every way to abolish those lessons taught by our founding fathers that people make posts on this blog like they do today. I would encourage anyone who is not a closed minded God hater to go to www.wallbuilders.com and check out some real history from the letters and documents of our founding fathers, the actual documents not abstracts developed by God haters and anti American communists and socialists. I only wish my State senator would have been on the list of sponsors, I think I'll call him and find out why not. Removing the anti-Christian bigotry in this country is of the utmost importance. Look at the SAT scores from the mid sixties after they took prayer out of school, notice the marked decline. You want SC on top, put God on top. Period.
Posted by greyrider on April 25, 2008 at 3:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The phrase "separation of church and state" was invented by 20th Century activists. Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was interpreted one way for 150 years and interpreted from the completely opposite direction since then. But don't take it from me. Research it for yourself.
Posted by bflosue on April 25, 2008 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I for one am very willing to sign on to a lawsuit against this crap. And when the state loses, these idiot politicians should be forced to reimberse the state for the legal fees.
There are thousands of churches, synagogues, mosques, private property, and other suitable places across the state for them to display their religion. Government entities and buildings are not one of these. The US is a secular nation, not a theocracy. If they are so eager to have religion forced into all aspects of public life, go live with the Taliban.
Posted by bkeelin on April 25, 2008 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SCdeacinNYC
"separation of church and state was one of their rallying calls."
Are you serious, besides one letter out of many that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a pastor ensuring him that the state would not interfere with the church find one other place the founding fathers rallied around seperation of church and state in the context of keeping the church out of politics. They didn't want the government to control the church, that's what they were afraid. They were not afraid of the Christianity being a foundational cornerstone to the American Government and the American way of life. There is a fallacy being pushed by some but it isn't by the Christian community, it's by God haters and that fallacy is that we can be a moral nation with out acknowledging the moral law giver.
Posted by bkeelin on April 25, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Go ahead and sign on to the law suit, you will not win because the US Supreme Court has already vetted this issue and set the guidelines which the state legislature followed. So to over turn this law would be to violate the precedents already established by the Supreme Court of the United States and with a conservative 4th circuit court of appeals I doubt you will get very far. But hey, let's waste the Anti Christian Liberty Union's money, then I hope the state sues them for court costs and doubles the wasted expense of the ACLU. I doubt the ACLU would even take on the case anyway, they no the stance of the US Supreme Court and I doubt they will do anything.
Posted by LowcountryMoose on April 25, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
bkeelin, since you likely live in or around our "Holy City," please, scope out a steeple and scurry to it. No one oppresses Christians in this country. God means many things to a lot of different people. Of course, negativity about your God is unacceptable to you. Please try really hard to be an American first and then worry about your own self-serving religious agenda.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ah, the God haters...that's anyone who doesn't pray at a town meeting you know. Anyone who doesn't say merry Christmas or happy easter. People who refuse to pray at the start of each class in school, or buy diapers on Sunday. Jews are God haters, Wiccans are God haters, anyone who doesn't pray when and where and the way bkeelin thinks they should is a God hater. Atheists, who don't even believe in God, are God haters too...they hate nothing. You see, if you don't want a religious fruitcake praying in your face and telling you you're going to burn in hell when you meet to discuss town business you're a God hater.
As far as everyone getting to say a prayer at town meetings, you may end up with so many people trying to get their religious say there won't be any time for town business. Is the point of a town meeting to discuss town business or to give people a soapbox to proselytize their personal religious views? If you feel your child needs to pray in school, send them to a Catholic school...oh wait, those are the wrong kind of Christians (God haters, they worship the Pope). Maybe a Jewish school...oh wait, God haters there too (they killed God you know, and he never saw it coming). What's a good Christian to do in America with so few places to pray?
Posted by ColdBeer on April 25, 2008 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Regardless of what you think the term "separation of church and state" means, or where it came from, why would you want me to pay taxes used to support your religion if I do not believe in that religion? To feel that way just makes no sense to me what so ever. Use of government owned buildings and government time and government employees to promote any religion is just plain wrong. Do it on your own time, in your own place and with you own money. I do not want to, and should not have to, contribute to your religion. I do not believe in your god or any god for that matter. I feel that all organized religions are nothing more than cults. Mainstream cults accepted by millions, but still... cults. I have no need for religion. I have no need for your god. Why should I have to contribute to your beliefs? I am not stopping you from practicing your religion. Please do so and I hope it brings you what you seek. It does not belong in government supported by tax payers. I fail to see how anyone can justify any other stance unless they can also justify the goals of people like Hitler. Government and religion, when mixed, will do nothing but bring hate, discontent and death. You cannot say that it would be OK for all religions to be represented because in the end, you would not allow that. You may allow the atheist to stand and say he doesn't agree with you, but you won't let the "blasphemous" devil worshiper stand up at the beginning of your meeting a pray to the devil. Why not? His beliefs are just as valid as yours. To think differently is just bigoted.
Personally, as an agnostic, I don't want to hear any of it. When I go to NASCAR races and they say the prayer before the race, I bow my head out of respect for those that get something out of prayers. NASCAR does not force me to contribute. NASCAR does not determine what I am and am not allowed to do in my life. I am forced to contribute to my government (I do so proudly) and my government does make laws determining what and what I am not allowed to do. Enjoy your beliefs. Don't spend my money doing it though.
Posted by greyrider on April 25, 2008 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No one should be forced to pray. But no one should be stopped from praying either. Sounds fair to me. Here's a few interesting quotes.
Patrick Henry - It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.
George Washington - " It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ." [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
All views, beliefs, non-beliefs should be respected. Give the Christians, the Jews, the Wiccans, the Muslims, the Buddhists and everyone else, freedom of speech. I am AGAINST the establishment of Christianity as a national religion. But all religions (including atheism) should have freedom to express themselves.
Posted by greyrider on April 25, 2008 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ColdBeer, I agree that you shouldn't have to "contribute" to something you don't believe in, but I really don't don't think you would be in this case. If you use the argument that prayer taking place in a government building means you are "funding" it so-to-speak, then someone could stretch that to mean people should not be allowed to pray on government-funded highways or in government-funded parks. I think the key that's being missed here is that Christians are not seeking to legislate prayer into the life of the non-believer, but that government leaders are ALSO Americans and they should not forfeit their constitutional freedoms just because they get elected to public office.
Posted by RTC on April 25, 2008 at 4:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If people don't believe in God, then that is their perogative.
I am a Christian, but I will never shove my beliefs on anyone that doesn't wish to hear them.
I have plenty of friends who are non-believers, and we still have common ground.
I will, however, never give up my beliefs simply because others don't share them.
My main pet peeve is hearing people say "thank God" all the time, when they are thanking someone in whom they do not believe. That is purely blasphemous.
I do respect most all religions, but never will I have tolerance for Satanism.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 4:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
All religions do have the freedom to express themselves. They don't need tax dollars to do so, and the government has no power to force others to listen to what they express.
George Washington was expressing his personal opinion, not a constitutional mandate. Patrick Henry was an opponent of the constitution, though he later became a federalist.
James Madison, the main writer of the constitution and also a president, spoke of the separation of religion and state many times. He feared religion and government becoming entwined almost as much as he feared that we would become a democracy rather than a democratic republic. We are fast becoming more democracy than republic to the detriment of the nation. Add in religion and it will only increase the speed of our fall.
Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform
Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731
The settled opinion here is, that religion is essentially distinct from civil Government, and exempt from its cognizance; that a connection between them is injurious to both; that there are causes in the human breast which ensure the perpetuity of religion without the aid of the law
Letter to Edward Everett, Montpellier, March 18, 1823
I cannot speak particularly of any of the cases excepting that of Virginia, where it is impossible to deny that religion prevails with more zeal and a more exemplary priesthood than it ever did when established and patronized by public authority. We are teaching the world the great truth, that Governments do better without kings and nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson: the Religion flourishes in greater purity without, than with the aid of Government
Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
James Madison was an Episcopalian, and recognized that if religion and government were mixed, both religion and government would be corrupted. He cared enough about religion to exclude government from it, and enough about government to exclude religion from it. Those who wish to use government to proselytize their religion will reap what he feared rather than what they want.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 5:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's an example of what will happen to religion if you let government get involved. Just consider what government has done for health care in the last 50 years. They mandated companies of a certain size provide insurance. They mandated that all insurance cover trivial medical care, that single men pay for pregnancy coverage and women pay for prostate cancer coverage and childless couples be covered for autism. Then they lowered the number of employees you can hire before you have to provide health care. Where we used be able to afford getting a boil lanced or taking our kids to the doctor when they were sick with the flu and only needed insurance for major bills, now just going in for a checkup is a major bill that we need insurance to pay for. The doctor has to pay special staff to do nothing but process insurance and government paperwork, and they spend more time doing that than it took your doctor to attend to your needs.
Consider this...the government mandates food insurance. Your employer has to provide it, and you go to the store and pay your $20 copay for whatever food you buy, ground beef or lobster. How long is it before only the insured can buy hamburger? Not long. Then the government will cry about the need for universal food care. As Nancy Pelosi or our resident socialist JohnQ would say, damn those greedy corporations trying to make a profit off the working class!
If you want to destroy anything, let the government get involved. If atheists really wanted to destroy the Christian religion, they'd push for more government involvement.
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 5:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And hey! It's all them there niggras driving this here thing, cause thems all God haters and worship roots is what I hear.
That was for you allwoman.
Posted by RTC on April 25, 2008 at 5:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
There have definitely been some great comments on this forum today and even intelligent debates.
God does work in mysterious ways. :)
Posted by cinnabar on April 25, 2008 at 6:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Dear God, thank you for allowing all the chance to express their opinion in print in this greatest country that has ever existed, founded on belief in you and blessed by your grace. Please forgive the irreverents who think they owe their existance, and supposed intellect, to their own good fortune. Someday they will see the light....
Posted by majorjohnson on April 25, 2008 at 6:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As an afterthought, I noticed that someone said they finally agree with JohnQ. I want to point out that while we may disagree with the legislation, I don't believe that it is for the same reason. JohnQ is a socialist and despises our constitution, read his posts. While we may both dislike this legislation, it is most certainly for different reasons. I dislike it because I believe it will harm both government and the religion it professes to support. I believe in capitalism and the federalist concept. JohnQ believes in socialism and democracy. I believe that we became the greatest nation in world history and raised more poor people into prosperity because of federalism and capitalism, JohnQ believes that having done so we now should shift to the proven failure of socialism.
Judt didn't want anyone to connect my opinion on this issue with any opinion on JohnQ's part. We may not like this, but it is cannot for the same reason as he is diametrically opposed to any end that I could possibly call for.
Posted by ColdBeer on April 25, 2008 at 10:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Comments like cinnabar's are what's aggravating.
cinnabar.. Where was your god when the little 12 year old girl was kidnapped by the old pedophile in Florida?... she was raped.. and buried alive. She was 12. Innocent. Now she's dead. Her parents live every day knowing how she died. Thank you for your "all knowing" god's work.
Where was your god when those worshipping him on a Sunday morning on Oahu were blown away by bombs when they didn't even know we were at war? Thank you for your god's work.
Serial rapist, serial murders, mass murders, priest and teachers that screw little boys and girls, famine, WMDs... yea, your god is doing a GREAT job...
NOT!
Your god does not control if and when I post on here. Please do not be so arrogant as to think he does. I am my own god and MY god can kick your god's ass. The next time you "talk" to him, tell him I said so.
To the rest of you, excuse me for being so brash. People like cinnabar are the reason non-christians get so upset with christians.
Posted by ColdBeer on April 25, 2008 at 10:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh yea, I know your next response, cinnabar, will be that you will pray for me. If you insist, please pray for:
1) better fishing
2) cheaper gas
3) cold beer
Am I going to hell? NO... I don't believe such a place exists. Even if it does, can it really be that much worse than what we see here on Earth every day? Your heaven... where a serial rapist can "find god" at the age of 70, become "saved" and enter.. but the good man that lived his whole life by good morals and values cannot enter unless he claims to be "saved"?... I'll pass.
Posted by cinnabar on April 26, 2008 at 7:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
CB...What about all the good things that happen. Someone who donates a kidney to someone else he doesnt know. A beautiful day and sunset and your being able to wake up every morning, catch a few fish, buy beer and think enough to drive. Think about what it takes for a single cell to become a human and grow and function for 80 years. Can you build something like that? Every day is a gift and I can't believe you and all others think you and everything else on earth and the universe originated from nothing and by chance. Based on your comments you consider this is hell--and you just might be working on a get out of hell pass. Keep trying and sorry my post annoyed you....
Posted by ColdBeer on April 26, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
cinnabar, I do good things every day. I collect money for charities. I've taken first aid training, on my own, so that I can help at the scene of accidents and emergencies. I served 20 years in our military. When I was younger, I was a volunteer fireman. I raised 4 great kids... you don't have to be a christian to do good things.
Posted by cinnabar on April 26, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks for your service and the good things you do. I don't have any doubt you are a good person. I believe a good person is a good person, no matter what he believes. But i dont believe anyone should begrudge people the right to believe in god or post the 10 commandments or any other tribute to a higher power. There is a 50/50 chance you are right about your belief there is no god. I pick the other side.
Also, I am happy legislators spend time on these type issues rather than trying to increase taxes or otherwise fix something that doesn't need fixing. BTW, I normally agree with you and find your comments funny. Cheers, drink one for me!
Posted by svilleswampfox on April 26, 2008 at 3:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Cold Beer - I almost always agree with your posts, I think our politics are very similar, if not identical(maybe). However, we don't agree on this one....
I am a Christian, but not a very good one. I'll be happy to answer the questions you posed in your posts above over several COLD BEERS. You know you can get my email on my profile. If you have a bike (1000cc or better) - we can make a ride too.