Fire report blasts cityState officials hit city, sofa store with fines The Post and Courier
Friday, September 21, 2007
Alan Hawes 'We want to get to the truth ... but it is important that the record be correct and that the truth is known. We are not going to allow this fire to be used or misconstrued.' Charleston Mayor Joe Riley, responding to the state OSHA report about the Sofa Super Store fire State officials hit city, sofa store with fines The Charleston Fire Department knowingly ignored the safety of its firefighters during the June 18 Sofa Super Store blaze, according to state officials, who on Thursday slapped the city with one of the largest fines ever imposed on a public agency in South Carolina. Nine city firefighters died in the blaze, the largest single loss of firefighters since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Mayor Joe Riley, who has consistently praised the fire department and its chief as among the nation's best, held to that position in a news conference and said the city will contest the state Occupational Safety and Health Administration's findings. OSHA cited the fire department for four violations and fined the city $9,325. But one City Council member said the report signals major problems in the department and called for the resignations of Fire Chief Rusty Thomas and Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin, who were in charge at the fire scene. The state also came down on the Sofa Super Store for failing to adequately protect its employees. The store was fined $32,775 — one of the largest penalties ever assessed against a small business in the state — for having padlocked or malfunctioning exit doors and for failing to a have an emergency action plan in place. Firefighter CoverageIn our special section with photos, videos, interactives, donation information and every story written about the tragedy.The state report came a day after the head of the state firefighters union called for Thomas' ouster, saying that before the fatal blaze, he resisted efforts to bring the department in line with national firefighting standards and practices. In the most serious of the violations against the fire department, the state fined the city $7,000, the maximum allowed by law, for failing to have an adequate command system to protect firefighters. The state defines this "willful" violation as "one committed with conscious or voluntary disregard" or "plain indifference to employee safety or health." Incident command systems are written procedures for managing emergency responses, and every local, county and state public safety agency in the country is supposed to have one. Riley insisted that the city did have a written incident command policy and that it was appropriately followed that night. He said the city would never knowingly place an employee in jeopardy and that it was inappropriate of OSHA to suggest otherwise. The fire department also failed to recognize known dangers associated with the furniture store's steel truss roof, the report said. Steel truss roofs are widely reviled by firefighters because they can mask growing fires and collapse within minutes when heated. For that reason, firefighting instructors and federal agencies have long warned of the dangers associated with steel truss roofs and recommend that firefighters battle blazes from outside such structures. A fire department report on the building drawn up before the June 18 fire made no mention of the steel truss structure, which ultimately collapsed. OSHA's report said the fire department lacked procedures "to cover the special hazards associated with fighting and attacking a fire involving a metal truss roof." Riley argued that the state had no specific regulation in place concerning steel truss roofs and is now attempting to impose such a requirement retroactively. "You can't make up policies after the fact," he said. Riley said the city has since drafted a policy for fighting fires under truss roofs, one of many changes since the June 18 fire. The remaining two violations, classified as "serious," involve the department's failure to require firefighters to wear full protective equipment while battling the blaze. Serious violations are issued for hazards that could injure or kill an employee and for those that the employer knew or should have known existed. The state fined the city a total of $525 for four instances in which firefighters exposed to smoke and toxic substances did not wear air packs. Burning sofas can emit dangerous fumes because they contain polyurethane foam, a highly combustible material that some fire protection experts liken to solid gasoline. The state fined the city an additional $900 for nine instances in which firefighters did not wear full protective clothing while battling the blaze. Video and photo footage from the scene shows firefighters with open coats and no helmets, standing mere feet from the flaming, crumbling facade. Riley said that the fire department had written policies in place requiring firefighters to wear full protective gear if they are actively involved in battling a blaze. Just because a few didn't follow those policies isn't a reflection on the entire department, he said. "We want to get to the truth ... but it is important that the record be correct and that the truth is known," he said. "We are not going to allow this fire to be used or misconstrued." Five other area fire departments that responded to the blaze were not cited for any violations in the report. State OSHA spokesman Jim Knight said the reason the store's fines are considerably larger than those levied against the city is because penalties for private employers are established by the federal government while the state sets parameters for penalties against public agencies. The next step is for state officials to meet with city leaders and store officials to discuss how they intend to respond to the violations. The state will consider any new information or arguments before deciding if the fines will stand or be reduced. State officials say that most cases are settled in these meetings, but the city and the sofa store owner can appeal the citations and fines to a state board. Riley said the sofa store blaze was a "perfect storm fire" and the department battled it valiantly. Riley said that when "incorrect conclusions" are factored out of OSHA's findings, the agency's report is actually "an affirmation of the leadership of the fire department and how hard they worked that night." Brandi Clark of Moncks Corner, a sister of firefighter Michael French, who died in the fire, strongly agreed with OSHA's findings that the department's command system was flawed. "I love Charleston city with all my heart, and I love Chief Rusty," she said, "but I feel mistakes were made, and this is a good way to correct them. The good old boy program might have worked back in the day, but it needs to be improved with technology today." Councilman Henry Fishburne struggled to find the words to convey his sadness. "This is the second-darkest day in the city's modern history. The first was June 18th." Fishburne said he was "extremely disappointed" that the city plans to contest OSHA's findings. At the mayor's urging, people withheld judgment until the investigation was completed, only to have Riley dispute the findings and "parse words," he said. "I think I've seen enough to know that we have a major problem and that is a result of failed leadership, training, tactics and equipment," he said. "The mayor has chosen, even in the face of this report and even with the deaths of nine men, to deny we have a problem." 
Alan Hawes Mayor Joe Riley addresses the OSHA report released Thursday from City Council chambers. City Councilman Henry Fishburne (left) watches from the side. Fishburne said Thomas and Garvin should step down so the department can begin to move forward. Fishburne said Thomas is a afforded a great deal of responsibility as chief and should be held accountable. Thomas immediately left the news conference after Riley ended his address. He did not take reporters' questions and was unavailable for comment, a City Hall employee said. While Fishburne called for Thomas to step down, other City Council members supported Riley's decision for a review of the OSHA findings. "I think he was right on," said Councilman Paul Tinkler, who, along with Councilwoman Yvonne Evans, favored waiting until all the reports and examinations of the fire are complete. Roger Yow, president of the Charleston Firefighter's Association that represents about half of the city's firefighters, said the report affirms concerns long held by many local firefighters. "This new report is significant because it's no longer just firefighters who claim the Charleston Fire Department is run in an unsafe manner," Yow said. "Now state officials also are condemning Chief Thomas' failed leadership, and Mayor Riley's blind allegiance to the chief is as unsafe as it is indefensible." Jay Lowry, a former city firefighter and fire inspector, said the report is damning and likely to fuel more calls for Thomas' resignation. "The report says the city was not prepared for that fire and nine brave men paid the price for it. I certainly think the chief, for the good of the department, needs to consider stepping down." City Councilman Wendell Gilliard said the city should accept OSHA's findings, pay the fines and move on for "the sake of the families, the nine heroes and the future." The city needs to pull together and resist casting blame for whatever problems occurred at the fire, Gilliard said. As a former labor representative, he said he was disappointed to see the state firefighters union head call for Thomas' ouster. "Unions are not supposed to call for people's jobs, they're suppose to save jobs," he said. "To call for someone's head is just the wrong approach." Sofa Super Store owner Herb Goldstein released a brief statement Thursday signaling his appreciation for the efforts of the city and its firefighters. He responded to one violation cited in the OSHA report but did not indicate whether he intended to pay or appeal the fine. "Our managers locked the doors at closing time to keep criminals and transients out of the building, and only when there were no customers present," he stated. Clark, firefighter French's sister, said she was outraged that the Sofa Super Store was fined only about $33,000 even though it had no sprinklers and had sofas stacked high in the store. "I think that's just a slap in the face." Firefighters across the country have been following the response to the Charleston tragedy and its implications for their profession. The report drew interest from as far away as California. Henry Howard, a retired fire chief who lives in Vallejo, Calif., has served on state and national fire safety committees. Howard, who has written a number of unofficial technical papers on the Charleston fire, said the OSHA report "was pretty much on the money. I think this was probably expected to occur by everyone. I think they could have been fined even more." Penalties Charleston Fire Department: WILLFUL VIOLATION: The department knew or should have known that its fire scene command system did not provide for the safety of firefighters. PENALTY: $7,000 SERIOUS VIOLATION: The fire department failed to develop special tactics for fires in buildings with metal truss roofs, such as that at the Sofa Super Store. PENALTY: $900 SERIOUS VIOLATION: Body protection equipment was not worn by nine firefighters* fighting the fire inside the building. PENALTY: $900 SERIOUS VIOLATION: Self-contained breathing apparatus was not worn by four firefighters exposed to smoke and toxic gases. PENALTY: $525 * Not the nine firefighters who were killed in the fire. Sofa Super Store: WILLFUL VIOLATION: Some exit doors were padlocked. PENALTY: $29,400 SERIOUS VIOLATION: Three fire doors were not in proper working order. PENALTY: $2,500 SERIOUS VIOLATION 2: No emergency action plan for employees. PENALTY: $875 What is a willful violation? One committed with conscious or voluntary disregard of the requirements of the South Carolina Occupational Safety and Health Act or plain indifference to employee safety or health.** What is a serious violation? One that could cause death or serious physical harm to employees, and the employer knew or should have known of the hazard. ** Fines for public agencies are considerably less than those for the private sector. -- SOURCE: South Carolina Office of Occupational Safety and Health Schuyler Kropf, Robert Behre and Jessica Johnson contributed to this report. Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com. Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 208 comment(s)
Posted by east3 on September 21, 2007 at 1:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The Mayor is unbelievable. A finding that they willfully caused the deaths of nine firefighters through their malfeasance is an "affirmation" of his fire department leaders?! What amazing hutzpah! What would get his attention? A homicide conviction?
He and the spineless council members - Tinkler, Evans and Gilliard, and any others who back him in this - should be ashamed. They care nothing for the firefighters who died serving them. They will not accept any measure of accountability.
Gilliard is an embarassment to the entire union movement, siding with an employer who willfully contributed to the deaths of employees. The number one job of a union is worker safety. He's satisfied to pay a fine of $1036.11 per dead firefighter and move on. So now I guess we know what a dead firefighter costs in Charleston.
Can there be only one good man in the entire city government of Charleston? It is evil to deny these fallen heroes and their brave brothers any measure of justice. Shame, shame.
Perhaps it is time for the firefighters of America to consider calling for a national boycott of a city that doesn't care if firefighters die.
David Grahl, Dayton, OH
Posted by MrCoffee on September 21, 2007 at 1:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
lot of bitterness out there towards Chief Thomas from the few that I keep reading on here. If I thought it were all for the right reasons, I would sympathize more. I do sympathize to a degree, but the level that some of you take this is absurd. He hasn't even had the chance to mourn. Give him a chance to make the changes he needs to make. Keep in mind, it's only been 90 days. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute.
Or just enjoy your witch hunt.
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 1:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Joe Riley thinks he's untouchable. He's become a dangerous man(reminiscent of Greenberg at the end of his career), and needs to be voted out of office.
Posted by Pluffmuddy on September 21, 2007 at 1:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MrC, there are at least 9 good reasons! Where have you been??? The chief has had 15 years to make changes...maybe you'd like to give him 15 more? As far as witches are concerned, they must be flying around in your head...there's no 'imagined' culprit here.
Posted by hotrod2007 on September 21, 2007 at 3:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
east3,
Keep on posting! We need and appreate your opinion. Just to offer a little background of southern politics. Some/most of our city council members will not speak out because its mot in their best interest. It all about a "quid pro quo." The mayor is a dictator, who for last 32 years has built a city government baised on cronism. It is not unique to the City of Charleston, most public agencies in public agencies has a simuler system in place. A few years ago, one of the mayor's cronies was caught writing check to his son and himself for services not rendered. This cost the taxpayers at least $500,000. The city council is only waiting for press to subside; they refuse to beleive that this situation has bigger than the Mayor and his rich friends.
I wholeheartedly agree that the firefighters of America should stand up for the Charleston 9, boycott and ensure that this never happens again. If not, the city will purchase the site of the fire (reward the owner) and create a memorial. The brothers of South Carolina needs your support NOW!
On the other hand, the mayor is being challenged for his job on November 07. It appears William Gregory http://gregorieformayor.com/ is the best QUALIFIED candidate for the job.
Posted by Paul on September 21, 2007 at 3:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Rusty: Go home and take Little Joe with you ...
Posted by Coastie_RET on September 21, 2007 at 5:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I completely agree with Yeahright. I'd say that's Riley's term has been a bit much. Undemocratic as it may sound, it doesn't exactly give anyone else a chance. "New blood" usually means new ideas, right? When you're in office for that long, where do the new ideas come from? I think there is a good case for term limits for Charleston's Mayor, actually any politician. Give someone else a chance.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 5:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The city of charleston mayor joseph p. riley, jr. has been dragged screaming and hollering every step of the way.
All he can say is we are the best, we are #1.
It's really sad, maybe the 9 didn't have to die, if only the mayor joseph p. riley, jr. had a better grasp on reality.
The smartest thing that the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. could do is to remove fire chief rusty thomas and his lieutenants from their positions.
As for the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. ..... "Bubba, I have met great leaders ..... some great leaders are friends of mine ..... and you Bubba, you're no great leader."
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 6:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It appears that now is a good time to call the city of charleston, at city hall, and demand mayor joseph p. riley, jr. resign.
Do it for the sake of the firemen still protecting charleston, whether you live there or not.
Posted by poorboy on September 21, 2007 at 6:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"yeahright" your right!
This is exactly why at every level of government we need term limits not dictators for life. This story is amazing as OSHA has found fault, fined the entities that were at fault some what, and he still denies the city dept did anything wrong. This is the democrat way, deny, deny, deny and point blame somewhere else!
This is the year if a formidable opponent stepped up you could put Joe in retirement.
Next, the lawyers are coming! This is what they have been waiting on. Proof of blame! This will cost the city a lot more than these paultry fines...
Posted by SUNTANNED on September 21, 2007 at 6:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I LIVE IN CT AND HAVE BEEN KEEPING UP WITH ALL THE NEWS OF THE TRAGEDY THERE.IT IS MY OPINION THAT CHARLESTON HAS A BIG PROBLEM.IT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE THAT CHIEF RUSTY THOMAS BE OUSTED FROM HIS POSITION ALONG WITH GARVIN.NINE EXPERIENCED MEN DIED .LET THE FAMILIES HAVE CLOSURE NOW OUSTING THESE TWO FOOLS'''''''''
Posted by oldcap on September 21, 2007 at 7:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Rusty has to go because he is incompetent and those of us who work for him know how he is at every fire.
Posted by mggoose2000 on September 21, 2007 at 7:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I wonder how OSHA and firefighters came to understand the dangers of fighting fires in buildings with "truss roof systems"; from experience! I wonder if the people involved in fighting those fires were villified like this.
As for firefighters not wearing their gear; since when is the Chief responsible for those that ignore safety procedures? Also, where are all of the photographs and video of other fires where they were not wearing their gear?
The Mayor of Charleston may be many things, but I remind you, he is an "elected" official. If he's doing such a terrible job, the citizens of Charleston have had numerous opportunities to vote him out in 32 years. Either all of the voters that vote for him every election are complete idiots or he's doing a good job. It takes a majority to elect him, folks!
Being a trained industrial firefighter, trained in the academy in Reno, Nv. I've fought some very dangerous fires and I've held the position of Fire Brigade Captain for 8 years. When these fires break out, the training or lack of training shows in how the firefighters respond. I believe that these 9 men died because they were unsure that all persons in the building were out. Their training calls for them to put their lives on the line to save others; that is what they did! Period.
All of your armchair quarterbacking of the CFD won't bring them back and villifying those that were in charge won't either. I wish all of you had the chance to be a firefighter at the scene of a fire of this magnitude, just once! It's a very humbling experience and I'm sure it would cause most of you to shut up and reflect on God's mercy, thanking him for your life and the lives of the other gallant firefighters that fought the blaze with you.
Also, when you make a mistake at work, I hope that everyone that you work with and all the customers and vendors and families of everyone jump on you and stomp your guts out. Then maybe you'd understand that RT is suffering more than you self-rightous Pollyaniacs(sp) would understand. These men were his friends and co-workers and if you jackasses think he sent those men to their deaths without a care, you are fools.
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 7:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't think anyone believes RT sent 9 men to their deaths without care. However, learning about "truss roof systems" through experience and then ignoring that lesson disrespects lives lost prior as well as those lost during this tragedy. Your point about Riley is well taken. Hopefully someone competent will present a challenge to him in the next election. The rest of your post, however, seems clouded by emotion, not logic.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 7:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Remember the nine!
Posted by oldcap on September 21, 2007 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
There are numerous pictures of firefighters not wearing their gear at this and other fires. Further, you may be a trained industrial firefighter but I'm a 25 year veteran of this department. Don't presume to come in and tell me how to remember my brothers, who I worked with.
As for Rusty you haven't heard him around the stations. You haven't been on the receiving end.
mggoose200 - Material is out there about truss dangers-there are classes on it. The reason experience is valuable is so others can learn from it. This chief and members of the command staff CAN"T describe a truss roof.
You need to go back to Rusty and let him give you some more material. That, or stick to fires in petro-chemical plants and let the big boys talk about what we know BECAUSE WE WORKI IN IT DAILY. Mutt.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Right, Boycott it is then.
As long as this man riley is mayor of charleston, I will spend no money in charleston s.c.
When I'm in the area, I will seek accomadations and buy the things I need in the City of North Charleston.
Posted by mmeemz on September 21, 2007 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Differences Between South Carolina and Federal OSHA Standards
South Carolina has adopted the Federal OSHA Standards verbatim, with a few exceptions. Differences between S.C. and Federal Standards follow
http://www.llronline.com/Labor/Osha/inde...
Posted by mmeemz on September 21, 2007 at 8:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It escapes me as to why some fail to recognize that the Chief has known about his shortcomings FOR YEARS. Even as of late he's reported to have said something along the lines of his (outdated)ways/policies are what they are and will continue. It's one thing to make a mistake, accept responsibility and make necessary changes, this entire debacle wreaks of everything but! We still have FFs out there who are in harms way under his "leadership." Surely even the skeptics can understand the fear these brave men and women have under the Chief's watch. Honestly people, it's far larger than blame at this point; it's a matter of survival for our CFD FFs. RT has had his time. Now, let someone who is qualified clean up the mess and move the FD forward into the 21st century.
Posted by mmeemz on September 21, 2007 at 8:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
HARPO for mayor???????
Posted by fyrmnjim on September 21, 2007 at 8:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
mggoose2000, I am sure glad you don't work for my dept, and am really glad you aren't my officer. Because quite frankly, by way of your statement, you aren't a very good one.
Yes, we have been fighting fires in Steel-truss buildings for decades and we have lost men in the past. But, the NIST an NFPA have done quite a lot with research, testing and writing standards and training so that we don't lose any more. It was obvious that by listening to the tapes and seeing the images, that Rusty didn't have a clue as to what he was facing and in a chief officer, that is in excusable.
As for the protective equipment and personal safety, the chief is ultimately responsible. You as an officer also have a duty to enforce safety procedures on your men. But you can't really complain about firefighters not adhereing to standards when even the chiefs don't follow them.
Posted by trinitytim on September 21, 2007 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Even in FDNY and Boston FD, when they lost 2 ff's, the respective chiefs were either placed on administrative leave pending the invesitgation or transferred to another job in the department.
In Charleston 9 brave men died and the chief says they did nothing wrong and would fight the fire the same way again. No excuse for that. He has to go. There are firefighters scared to say anything because they know that this chief will retaiiate and they may lose their jobs.
Any LEADER will tell you that once you have lost the confidence of your personnel, you have lost the war. It is time for this chief to step down. And what's this mayor do, nothing, business as usual except for the fact that 9 brave men died. Shameful and disgusting.
Why do you citizens of Charleston put up with that. It's time for the citizens to stand up for their firefighters not a mayor who thinks he owns the city.
Posted by burton on September 21, 2007 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
mggoose2000, the leader is held to a higher standard. That is leadership 101. The chief is a lame duck chief! Everyone needs to research what the Peter Principle is because this is a classic case of it folks! Yes, the lawsuits will now start coming out. I'm sure the lawyers were just waiting for these reports to come out to give them more ammo. Anyone every heard of a "willful or wrongful death" lawsuit?
The arrogrance of King Riley is astounding! Even Bush knows when to let his people go and get someone new in. Again, I still blame the voters of Charleston that have voted King Riley in for the last 32 years! You created him so live with him! Continue to kneel and kiss his Citadel ring! The only one that has a backbone in all of this is Councilman Fishburne! The rest of the city council members are King Riley's subjects! How do they describe Charleston City govt...oh yea, a strong Mayor and a weak council. Mercy!
Posted by Rongodzilla on September 21, 2007 at 8:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The firefighters union and the people of charleston need to get a petition for Rileys resignation out on to the streets. He needs to go and he needs to go now. Take responsibility for your actions Joe. Step down and admit you are wrong.
Posted by junkman on September 21, 2007 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Has anyone in the Charleston FD even been through the National Fire Acadamy's Executive Fire Officer Program?
The fact there was no command center at a scene this large is unbelievable.
Posted by icbmman on September 21, 2007 at 8:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hotrod, you've got to be kidding me. You believe Gregorie is the best qualified candidate for the job?! I'm sorry, but I disagree. The city has not found a viable candidate to run against Joe in the past several elections, and Gregorie defines mediocrity in his campaign AND in his vision for the city.
Sadly, the citizens are going to be stuck with Riley and his crony leadership as long as mediocre candidates with lackadaisical vision continue to be the only competition. As for the chief and his administration, he probably does need to be relieved of his command. It is unfortunate, but it will probably be the best way to institute necessary changes in CFD.
Posted by jcaulkins on September 21, 2007 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Chief Grahl, I appreciate and respect your input and reasoned opinion about the June 18 fire. I disagree with your call for a boycott of Charleston. That will only hurt us, its citizens and send the wrong message. I will ask you to consider joining with other fire chiefs across the nation to write a letter of rebuke to the chief officers of the Charleston Fire Department about their conduct and behavior at the fire. If you could get your professional organization of fire chiefs to sponsor the letter and widely publicize it, that would send a powerful message.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If the mayor refuses to make administrative decisions regarding this fire, I would suggest, based on some statements above, that a boycott of Charleston is an excellent idea. Nine years (one for each fire fighter lost in the Sofa Super Store). Do not buy products from the City of Charleston stores, do not stay in the City of Charleston hotels/inns, do not eat at the City of Charleston restaurants. Let the business owners put pressure on the mayor. These fines (OSHA) might not bother Joe but an abrupt change in tourism certainly would.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 9:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mayor Rumplestiltzkin: Nearly every fire department in the country is watching this story. Please don't continue making Charleston, SC look bad as you try to fight the OSHA violations. Take the violations, learn from them, implement nationally recognized standards and have Rusty step down so the department can move forward. This department will not move forward with a leader that has lost their respect and confidence.
You can claim Rusty is the excellent chief all you want, but the firefighters doing the real job feel otherwise. You, Mayor, only continue to make Charleston and yourself look bad in the eyes of the rest of the country. Right now, I am even more ashamed of the city's response and I am a born and bred Charlestonian.
Posted by Neponset on September 21, 2007 at 9:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Rusty has caused Joe a lot of problems and I am sure he is not happy with Rusty - my guess is that Joe will ease him out when he can. Getting Joe out is going to be differcult - we need an opponent with dynamite credentials.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jcaulkins: I agree. A boycott would hurt the city and its citizens, but if Joe will not respond to reality, then this may be the only way to reach him. The boycott could be lifted if the mayor decides to make some logical decisions regarding these reports, the fire itself and the opinions of the CFD FFs (not the brass). There are a number of excellent places to stay, to eat and to shop in North Charleston, in Summerville and in Savannah, for that matter.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jcaulkins: Further, judging Riley's actions of late, he would probably just toss a letter such as you suggest in the trash can as coming from "uninformed Yankees."
Posted by BillyTheKid32 on September 21, 2007 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It is a shame that this has come to where it is now. I don't want to hear the mayors or the fire chief excuses for what happened. I don't like to see finger pointing away from ones self when they hold the blame.
I would like to know more about the man who is running against him in the election. Some background is all. You don't need much to beat the kind of "job" Charleston is getting now.
Posted by bigbrotheriswatching on September 21, 2007 at 10:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
icbmman,
I have seen your comments the past few days and you typify, and are the embodiment, of why Riley has been mayor for the past 32 years. You just accept the fact that Riley will be mayor. You find any excuse to justify your reasoning to continue to promote his agenda. There are alot of people like you. So much so that this is why the majority of the registered voters in the city no longer participate in the process. If you are so unsatisfied with the choice of opponents then why don't you, as a member of a democracy, go identify, encourage and support "YOUR" candidate, then rather cry and whine about those who are "mediocre" according to you. Now before you whine and call me a Mary Clark supporter or a redneck ( like I said, I have read your posts)
Now let's look at Riley's opponents for the curreny election:
Omar Brown - A city of Charleston police officer who , is so fed up with the mayor that he has chosen to run against him. The equivalent of a firemen stepping forward and speaking out against Rusty Thomas and his Department. I would say Brown may lack the executive and managerial skills to run a city the size of Charleston, but I respect his efforts.
Mark Knapp - A very intelligent individual, Various degrees and education, professional and life experience. Has been a thorn in the mayor's side for years but has never been able to garner the numbers at the polls to be considered a serious threat. But recently has been in each election, there making a stand.
William Gregorie - A retired executive of the federal government, 32 years, 20 of those as a senior manager. He has dealt with budgets in the millions, and annual budgets in the billions. Unbeknowing to you "Icbmman", he and Riley have crossed paths during his career at HUD on several occasions. So if you are in a position to ask mayor Riley about him, I would doubt that even he would refer to him as "mediocre" .
I have visited each candidates websites, heard them all in the same room, something I bet many of you have not had the opportunity to do. And before you allow people to feed you their opinion, and this is mine, I encourage you all to really compare the candidates, because this election is a very pivitol one. It will not only make a statement as to our choice as to the leader of our city but it will state how we condone or support the current display of authoritarianism that is being displayed by the current administration.
The OSHA report was on the AP wire, so you can believe that the state, and nation will be watching this election and the outcome will either say the voters in Charleston stood up, or it will say Good Ole boys are still in charge and Charleston is not the All American City it professes to be.
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Charleston was a dangerous and delapidated city when the Mayor first took office. He has transformed this city into a major tourist destination, which has led to increased property values, jobs, opportunities to make money for a multitude of businesses, etc. He has done more for the local economy than anyone. Have you ever been to Detroit, Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC? Go there an take a look around at what inept mayors have done, and then you will understand that you don't know what in the hell you are talking about when you slam the mayor. He will be recognized 100 years from now, as a truly great and remarkable mayor, with vision, perserverance and high standards. He did all of this and has also had to manage fire, police, public works, transportation. So the fire department screwed up, and it was tragic, and it could have been prevented. Haven't any of you ever made a mistake? They will fix it, and believe me, they are suffering over it, only someone who is inhuman wouldn't be. It is easy to be so black and white about it, but I sure as hell bet if any of you personnally accidentally hurt or killed someone, you wouldn't volunteer to lose your career over it either. Any Christians at all here, I see so many casting stones.......
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Omar Brown -Noble but clueless.
Mark Knapp - A total idiot with money and some sort of ego disorder - needs therapy.
William Gregorie - HUGE EGO - Where has he been all of these years? GONE! Does he understand the community - no he is an eliteist. Must think he is entitled to it because he is so smart, and he did us the honor of coming home. He says we need a government that works for everyone - who is it not working for now - and just what in the hell do they need?
Posted by rjahopp on September 21, 2007 at 10:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
RE: "When I'm in the area, I will seek accomadations (sp)and buy the things I need in the City of North Charleston."
Maybe Summerville is a better candidate ... food for thought (crimes per 100k - latest FBI stats):
Murder: ---------- 13 NC ------- 10 C ------- 3 S ---------- 7 NA
Rape: ------------ 96 NC ------ 46 C ------ 29 S -------- 32 NA
Robbery: ------- 607 NC ----- 272 C ------ 98 S ------- 195 NA
Assualt: ------ 1008 NC ----- 615 C ----- 253 S ----- 340 NA
Burgularly: --- 1598 NC ----- 762 C ---- 533 S ----- 814 NA
Larceny: ------ 5892 NC ---- 3258 C ---- 3051 S ---- 2736 NA
Auto Theft:
NC - North Charleston
C - Charleston
S - Summerville
NA - Nat'l Avg
One would have a 4+ times greater chance of being murderd; a 3+ greater chance of being raped; a 6+ times grater chance of being robbed in NC than in S. Between NC, C, and S, the only one that falls below the NA in all cats. is S.
Oh ... S is also somewhat more rural ... lots of Bubba's.
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 21, 2007 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Reading publications by NIOSH is one way to learn about truss structures and other potential building risks.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/
Posted by scchickens on September 21, 2007 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Little Joe, RT and Garvin accepted leadership roles that come with responsibility and accountability. The responsibility was FAILED, so all three should be man enough to accept accountability and step down immediately. Little Joe had full knowledge of RTs' refusals to update policy and procedure in the department. RTs' arrogant refusal to change before and after should be enough for all of us. Garvin, who saw smoke in the ceiling and didn't even remove a simple tile, shouldn't even be allowed to hold a sparkler on the 4th of july. What do you expect from a man who couldn't catch a routine fly ball on his best day, but names a multi milion dollar baseball stadium after himself. What a JO ke! If you always do the same thing today that you did yesterday, then you will always be where you are. After 32 years, here we are. Vote Vote Vote for anything new.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
whycantitbebetterhere: Your "MB name" says it all: because Mayor Riley is in charge. Yes, the mayor did help (not single-handedly) built up the Charleston City economy, but, of late has been making, in my opinion, some really shoddy decisions affecting the city. He doesn't "manage fire"....he lets Rusty do that and he supports a chief who also has, in my opinion, made some really shoddy decisions during his career. Is that a sign of a statesman? No, it is the sign of a true politician.
"So the fire department screwed up, and it was tragic, and it could have been prevented," makes my skin crawl. NINE MEN DIED and "it could have been prevented." It will take years and years to "fix it" and meanwhile, other ff's lives are at risk. The chief does things "his way" and the mayor continues, in spite of the reports, to support him.
You are correct, God would expect us to forgive, but he would not expect us to be stupid.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tim: please check your pm.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 10:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"BOYCOTT" ........... "BOYCOTT" ............ "BOYCOTT"
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 21, 2007 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a link to the specific list of recommendations in the NIOSH report on truss structures:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/#...
Posted by dog on September 21, 2007 at 11:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
rjahopp, you almost make me miss Summerville. From the numbers you posted, law enforcement & the justice system are certainly better there...right next door to North Chas.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 11:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
rjahopp - You really need to be careful flying in and out of the region. Charleston International Airport is surrounded on all sides by the City of North Charleston.
Maybe your city of charleston mayor, joseph p. riley, jr. can spare a squad of city of charleston police to escourt you through the City of North Charleston.
Would be awful to become a victim of rape, assult, robbery and car theft on the way to catch your flight.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 11:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Must be all the thousands of Summerville Police guarding the border with the City of North Charleston.
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"whycantitbebetter"-you mention ego twice in your rebukes of the three other candidates in the upcoming election. Have you heard anything your beloved Joe Riley has said lately? The man's ego is spiralling out of control. It could be better here. But my feeling is that it's getting worse. We need new leadership, not the same old dictator.
Posted by Harpo on September 21, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Riley's reaction to the fines: DEFIANCE
He will debate them rather than heed them. What more needs
to be said here?
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh crawly skin - I was not trying to minimize what occurred, but I doubt that you understand that what it was that I was saying. In the execution of management of large projects, there are accidents and management mistakes. While you want to elevate the men that were tragically affected to the only thing that matters, the reality is that it was a tragic event, people will have to learn from it, and it could have been prevented. However, you do not completely tear apart the mechanism which caused it because people died. You learn from it and change what needs to be changed.
Thank you for attacking my user name, if you must know, the reason I have it is because there are many things wrong here, and Mayor Riley IS NOT one of them. He is one of the few things that are right.
What is wrong is that there is far too low a standard applied to public schools (bigots don't care because their kids are not in them - or they have moved to Mount Pleasant and clustered themselves), far too low taxes are paid to support infrastructure and general maintenance of everything (bigots don't like to pay for things that are for everybody), large corporations do not locate here (because there aren't that many people available who received a good education who would fit into their corporate structure)(and it is clear that we are not spending enough on public works, facilities, schools, roads, sidewalks, cleaning, litter education, recreational facilities, law enforcement, jails, just to name a few), also wages here are very low in relation to real estate prices (bigots don't like to pay people to work for them), etc.... SO THERE YOU GO...that makes my skin crawl....
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Most of the people who are murdered or assaulted in the City of North Charleston are criminals. As long as you ain't a crack dealer you fine. Might wanna bring ya gun though, you might could help out from time to time...
Sad, though, most of the people buying drugs live in Mt. Pleasant or Charleston. The people dying in North Charleston and Charleston are just trying to sell them....
Posted by jcaulkins on September 21, 2007 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
whycantitbebetter: what part of "willful violation" in the OSHA citation did you not understand?
Posted by nitelite on September 21, 2007 at 11:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
whycantitbebetterhere
your name says it all.... it can be better in Charleston
Riley has been effective, no one is saying that Charleston hasn't changed, but his effectiveness has run it's course.
Scandal has marred his last 3 administrations..
Molony, Greenburg, and now Rusty...
His capital investments are failing. While our streets still flood and for all that he say's he's working on, you mean to tell me in 32 years he hasn't got a grip on the problems?
What he is afraid of is the fraud and corruption that will be revealed when someone else takes office.
He sits from his throne in city hall like a bully pulpit. Charlestonians need to pause and take note. Joe has become the person that he rallied to defeat in his first term.. Those old enough to know can tell you the story.
We need new blood downtown. Allow a new transition to spread changes throughout the city. And you cannot talk about EGO without reffering to Joe Riley.
why do you think OSHA stuck it to him? because a couple of weeks ago his EGO got to talking about OSHA and those uniforms remember? and at the time OSHA issued no statement as if to say, We have something coming for you bigmouth!
Now he is accusing them of being inaccurate?!?!? imagine that!
with a NIOSH report yet to be issued I think Riley needs to shut his mouth for a change!
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
joe - Noble but clueless.
joe - A total idiot with money and some sort of ego disorder - needs therapy.
joe - HUGE EGO - Where has he been all of these years? GONE! Does he understand the community - no he is an eliteist. Must think he is entitled to it because he is so smart, and he did us the honor of coming home. He says we need a government that works for everyone - who is it not working for now - and just what in the hell do they need?
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 11:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
rjahopp: Fine, let everyone shop, dine and spend the evening in Mt. Pleasant where the crime rates are below national average and below the City of Charleston.
From Wikopedia: City of Charleston Police Department
The City of Charleston Police Department is South Carolina's largest Police Department. Their procedures on cracking down on drug use and gang violence in the city are used as models to other cities to do the same. With a total of 382 sworn officers, 137 civilians and 27 reserve police officers, it is South Carolina's largest Police Department. According to the final 2005 FBI Crime Reports, Charleston crime level is worse than the national average in almost every major category.[14]
Notice the word "worse". Statistics can be very deceiving. For example, FBI statistics are based on those crimes REPORTED to the FBI. Another example of statistics being deceiving, pages and pages of internet training certificates.
Posted by nitelite on September 21, 2007 at 11:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's Riley
While your streets are flooding, I'll build you a park!
While you fight to afford to live in the city... I'll buy a asbestos filled vacant building for 11 million dollars.
While your schools suffer I'll repave King streets and redo the sidewalks so when our tourists shop they can see how pretty the ground is.
Riley wanted a fish tank, so He used our tax dollars to build an Aquarium that was out of date, and couldn't compare to those in neighboring cities, BEFORE it was completed. And it is a wonder why it isn't profitable.
But he and his cronnies made their profits in the construction process... you see Dan Molony was there for that part....
You guys better see what is going on and has been going on and let this fire situation be the justification you need to let this man go.
I don't care if he let's rusty go tommorrow! It's too late.
Joe can go to his Island and succeed from the city and run his pulpit there!
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The City of Charlston has no legal jurisdiction over schools - that is the STATE.
The City of Charleston has no legal jurisdiction over the roads - that is the STATE.
The City of Charleston also must have every action approved by - CITY COUNCIL.
Did y'all go to school here or something - you obviously need civics lesson...
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
what part of "willful violation" in the OSHA citation did you not understand?
Doesn't mean it is the final or correct conclusion, of course OSHA has to cover their ass.... They were supposed to be inspecting all of these years "right"? Where is their report from 2 or 10 years ago identifying these deficiencies....plenty of ass covering by OSHA...
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wonder how many large corporations will want to re-locate to the City of Charleston now?
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
exocist_pencocky you obviously don't have an original thought to contribute... nice try
Posted by FIRSTDUE on September 21, 2007 at 12:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mayor Riley said in his press conference that the CFD will become the international model for what FD's do after a similar incident. The CFD is already a model for international FD's. It is a model for what can happen to a FD that refuses to adopt standards that are internationally recogized and fail to educate its leaders in properly running a FD and a Firegound operation. Every fire officer curriculum in this country will have a chapter devoted to the CFD and its pre June 18th practices and the SSF. Yes the CFD and Rusty Thomas will be very famous indeed. Not for what they did post fire but what they did before and doing the fire. Mayor Riley's confidence in Chief Thomas has nothing to do with his past performance and so must be based on pure friendship.
Mayor Riley believes the command system in use that night was sufficient. I don't believe even Rusty Thomas would agree to that statement. I know dozens of ffs who where there the night and no one has come close to expressing that opinion.
Joe you have been a good public servant now quit embarassing yourself and do the right thing.
Posted by jcaulkins on September 21, 2007 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Quote from the story above: Riley said that when "incorrect conclusions" are factored out of OSHA's findings, the agency's report is actually "an affirmation of the leadership of the fire department and how hard they worked that night."
The mayor needs to be hospitalized, he is becoming delusional.
No disrespect meant to those who fought the fire June 18, I appreciate your efforts and thank you for your service.
Posted by juniemoon1957 on September 21, 2007 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
WWW>WISTV>COM REPORTS............
CHARLESTON, SC (AP) - Police in Charleston have closed off portions of a major downtown street while they investigate a suspicious package.
Police say customers at a coffee shop noticed the package in some bushes outside an office building on Calhoun Street before 9am and called authorities.
Police say the device is attached to a cell phone.
Police say some classes at the College of Charleston have been canceled as a result of the suspicious package.
Calhoun Street has been shut down between King and Pitt Streets.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Posted by juniemoon1957 on September 21, 2007 at 12:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You guys be careful. Lets hope this package is nothing and at least does not start a fire until all this mess with the fire department clears up. I would hate for any further injuries to occur.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The problem with Mayor Riley's statement about Incident Command indicates that he has never heard proper Incident Command. There are several points that need to be addressed: First, there is NEVER an "assumed" Incident Command. Just because someone is a chief, does not mean that when he is on the scene, he is in charge. Incident Command (IC) is announced on the radio to dispatch so that all ffs on the scene know who is giving the orders. They do not have to "look around" for the chief because, if PROPERLY trained any fire fighter could be an Incident Commander. Second, the IC in most departments is identified by a very obvious IC vest he/she wears that says, in letters that glow in the dark and smoke, "Incident Commander". Third, the IC is in charge of everything....he/she may appoint an "Inside Command", consisting of ffs inside the structure, but that person reports directly to him/her, and is in charge of those ffs inside the structure. Fourth, the IC knows exactly who is in that structure by accountability or ID tags that each ff leaves with the IC BEFORE going into the structure. The IC doesn't have to call on the radio for a specific ff and ask if anyone has seen him....is he in the structure?....is he up on the ladder truck?....the IC knows if that ff is in the building because he is holding that ff's ID tag. When the ff comes out of the building, he picks up that tag from the IC. So, at any given point, before doing ANY procedure that might endanger the lives of those inside, the IC will know not only how many ffs are inside but exactly who they are. Fifth, the dispatcher is in contact with the IC to ascertain what other equipment, mutual aid or services he/she needs. This is a VERY brief idea of IC. It is more complicated than this, but it is CERTAINLY not screaming and yelling into a radio and ffs in a smoke filled environment not knowing who is in charge, etc.
Posted by TRUCKIE on September 21, 2007 at 1:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I want to think that I have and will follow the aftermath of this fire pretty closely.
But I have one question:
Why has the Chief not defended himself and his department publicly. To me he has not spoken since the funerals. I read somewhere in this report or one just before it that he immediatley left the news conference after the Mayor finished speaking.
Now I dont know but to me if I were the Fire Chief and I believed in my department as much as my Mayor did, I would dang sure step up to the mic' and say the same things.
I dont know? Looks like the little career light in the corner of his eye is dimming.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 1:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta, the way I understand it is that there should be one other person assigned as the accountability bubba. I would think that the IC would appoint someone to do this because for the IC to do it all himself may be too much of a distraction. I could be wrong on this......
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 1:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Truckie, some recent questions directed to the chief have been referred for them to contact the city attorney. I think the Mayor and the city attorney's have quashed Rusty's public comments.
Posted by miki on September 21, 2007 at 1:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Riley said that the fire department had written policies in place requiring firefighters to wear full protective gear if they are actively involved in battling a blaze. Just because a few didn't follow those policies isn't a reflection on the entire department, he said."
Umm, if ICS had followed, the incident commander would have been responsible for ff not wearing uniforms. If they are implying that Chief Larry was acting incident commander, he certainly never acted like it.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 1:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
www.firefighterhourly.com has a photo of 3 men, Chief is the middle one. It appears that at least 2 of them are not wearing proper protective gear at a fire. If the chief doesn't wear proper gear, why would anyone expect the men to? They should ALL being wearing proper gear!
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CTgirl: Yes, in a larger fire (more ffs, bigger structure), that is an option. Again, the Accountability individual would answer to the IC also. I just tried to present it in a nutshell so that people understand IC is not "we all know if the chief is on the scene, he is in charge". It is an announced command. The chief certainly has the right to take command from the previously announced IC, but again, it is announced and not assumed. You saw the pictures of the SSS fire and smoke. To have to "look around to see if the chief is there" in order to know who is in charge is more than distracting for ffs.
There are courses specifically in Incident Command, along with the training that accompanies them. One of the posters on the MBs directed us to a site of a fire in Houston in a high rise building fire where IC was excellent. When one is properly trained in IC (not just the chiefs, but the ffs also), it flows smoothly and a lot safer than a chaotic fire scene without it which is why it is a nationally recognized and required system for fighting fires and used by progressive fire departments.
Posted by lillycollette on September 21, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by nitelite
Scandal has marred his last 3 administrations: Molony, Greenburg, and now Rusty...
What he is afraid of is the -- fraud and corruption -- that will be revealed when someone else takes office.
I am in total agreement with nitelite on this one. Charleston reeks of fraud and corruption -- more than most know. I would be most pleased to sign a petition kicking Riley to the curb.
Posted by miki on September 21, 2007 at 1:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Clark, firefighter French's sister, said she was outraged that the Sofa Super Store was fined only about $33,000 even though it had no sprinklers and had sofas stacked high in the store. "I think that's just a slap in the face.""
Sorry Ms. Clark. Those two issues are not against any law and cannot be included in any fines or rulings.
Posted by dreamer on September 21, 2007 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Truckie--I am not sure as to your question but I do know that there was an opening for a public information officer on last week's City job line. The job was to be liason between Joe Riley's office and the Fire Chief. (I thought of applying, but I didn't want that can of worms!)
--maybe some of the firefighters who read this post can answer this:
The issues that were cited in this report, are some of them not choices made by the individual firefighter? Is the question here whether they wore it or whether it was provided at all?
I have a family member who is an official with the MEmphis fire dept. (THe same dept. that the p&c visited in June following the fire).
There, the firefighters are provided ppe and they are expected to use it. But in the heat of the moment, they ultimately are responsible for what equipment is carried into the fire.
As for Rusty Thomas...I have to be honest--I think that he is taking this harder than anyone of us could imagine. Yes, lives were lost--lives that should have been protected. They were fighting a fire, something that most of us run from. At the same time, a commander who takes his troops into battle, does so knowing that lives may be lost. That commander doesn't come away from the task thinking, "oh well, ,better luck next time!" He comes away thinking, "what can we do to see that this doesn't happen next time?" Rusty Thomas hasn't even had time to do that and already people are calling for him to resign. I am not saying that perhaps it is time for a change in leadership. I am also not saying that perhaps a new mayor is neccessitated. However,I am saying that when there is a tragedy such as this, everyone looks to point fingers. Right now--we should be focused on what can be done for the family members of the fallen. What we can do to avoid these issues in the future--and we do this by taking these reports and implementing the measures in them--over the course of TIME. While yes, there is a sense of urgency in the process...there is a tremendous amount of grieving that must take place.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Dreamer, no disrespect to you intended, but 3 months seems like a long enough time to admit that there were mistakes and to move toward change. According to FF's that have posted here, change is being forced and I have yet to hear Rusty or Mayor Rumplestiltzkin admit mistakes were made.
Posted by mmeemz on September 21, 2007 at 1:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Riley said he would "vigorously" challenge/appeal OSHA's findings..... So, at the end of the day, Riley's address in response to the Chief's resignation being called for and his address regarding OSHA's findings should just about sum things up for those few skeptics left out there. How much more "in your face" can one be?!
Posted by Reader on September 21, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Whycantitbebetterhere said:
"The City of Charlston has no legal jurisdiction over schools - that is the STATE. The City of Charleston has no legal jurisdiction over the roads - that is the STATE. The City of Charleston also must have every action approved by - CITY COUNCIL. Did y'all go to school here or something - you obviously need civics lesson..."
I agree with you about the schools (although it has never stopped Joe from making education his business such as campaigning for the bond referendum a few years ago).
As to roads, you are wrong, at least in part. In Charleston, there are federally maintained roads (the Interstate), State maintained roads (parts of King St.), and City maintained roads (most local streets like Pitt St. or Legare St.). It is the locally maintained roads that have the problems.
Lastly, everyone is right to lay the blame for most of our problems on Joe's doorstep. Anyone remotely familiar with this City knows that the Mayor is the first among equals on City Council. Things don't happen without his support, and things are pushed through with it. Joe is a voting member of City Council like the others, but I'll wager that he has been in the minority on City Council votes probably fewer than a dozen times in the last decade.
Moreover, Joe is singly in charge of hiring and firing our top officials like Rusty Thomas. The other members of City Council cannot be faulted for keeping him on since they have nothing to do with the hiring decision.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 2:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I have finally come to the sad conclusion that the citizens can do nothing more than watch from the sidelines. With the exception of ONE city council member, no one else in city government cares about this situation or the safety of the remaining FF's.
In my opinion, it is now up to the FF's to speak up openly. If you are harassed or threatened in anyway, there are agencies to protect you against that type of harassment. If a group of 75 to 100 speak up, what are they going to do? They can't fire you all!
I think the newspapers and the citizens commenting in these forums have done of excellent job of supporting the FF's but in the end, it all comes down to you guys stepping up.
Stay safe! You guys will continue to be in my daily prayers.
Posted by Rongodzilla on September 21, 2007 at 2:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with the poster who said that this city reeks of fraud and corruption. I've always heard the rumor that the day King Riley leaves office a whole pandoras box of pay-off and slush funds and missing money will be begin to see the light of day.
Posted by nitelite on September 21, 2007 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
whycantitbebetter...
you my friend are in need of a lesson..
THE CITY makes it request to the state as to what roads are given priority within the city.
THE SIDEWALKS -are a function of the STREETS AND SIDEWALKS divison of the city located on MILFORD avenue.
And as far as the schools, the county school board can have its authority removed by the city, as had been the case in various cities across the nation, when the COUNTY has not operated the schools EFFECTIVELY.
Posted by WalkMan on September 21, 2007 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think it's important to note that a $7000 fine is the MAXIMUM fine allowable by OSHA to a government or "public" agency. This is due to the fact that OSHA does not wish to place an "undue" burden upon the taxpayers for fines. This "Willful Violation" caused OSHA to hand down the largest fine allowable, and that speaks volumes.
Posted by Reader on September 21, 2007 at 2:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nitelite -
I agree with your taking issue with Whycantitbebetterhere, but you are not correct when you say this: "And as far as the schools, the county school board can have its authority removed by the city, as had been the case in various cities across the nation, when the COUNTY has not operated the schools EFFECTIVELY." Whether or not that can be done elsewhere, there is no way that that can occur in South Carolina.
The City has absolutely no authority over the Charleston County School District. The State Department of Education can declare a school to be in crisis and put a temporary superintendent in place (as was done, I think, in Allendale a few years ago), but the City has no power at all.
Posted by trinitytim on September 21, 2007 at 2:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good point walkman. That says it all.
Unfortunately, I don't think Riley, Thomas, or their cronies are listening.
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am right, you are not only wrong but incredibly confident for someone who is so stupid. South Carolina has the fouth largest road network in the US, that is because almost all of the roads are State roads. Second, the City can make recommendations about road projects (sure - but they are funded by the State - no $ no project - what do you think the 1/2 cent was needed for?) Sidewalks - property owner or owner of the road (STATE - duh). Schools - never part of the city - never will be. DING DANG! Y'all bumpkins don't even know where you get your gov'ment from. MOSTLY - THE STATE! Do you even know who your legislator is? Talk to THEM about why some things are so crappy here!
Cities - police, fire, recreation, parks, some public works, economic development, housing (some not all), civic centers, cultural affairs, parking, signals, signage, building permits, business license, code enforcement, santiation, etc. DUH! DUH! DUH! DING DANG!
Posted by mountain on September 21, 2007 at 3:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Riley was arrogant when he tried to force James Island to join the city. He wasted thousands of tax payers dollars on legal fees. Then he was arrogant when he passed the unconstitutional smoking ban which will end up costing the tax payers more wasted money in legal fees. He is arrogant today and plans to waste more money fighting OSHA.
I don't know about anybody else but I plan to do everything I can to get him out of office, along with most of the City Council. I have written the Post and Courier exposing him many times but they refuse to expose the truth.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 21, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
>>> whycantitbebetterhere - what do you think the 1/2 cent was needed for?<<<
The city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. needed the money to pay
for the fancy cooper river bridge.
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
whycantitbebetter-your ignorance would be humorous if you weren't obviously one of the mindless lemmings lining up to vote Riley back into office. Obviously not from here, referring to "ya'll bumpkins", yet you complain about how "crappy" it is here while pledging your allegiance to Joe Riley. Do your part to make it better here...leave.
Posted by WardLaFrance on September 21, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Dear Why: I learned a long time ago to never argue with someone whose opinion I don't respect.
Posted by WardLaFrance on September 21, 2007 at 3:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mr. Coffee stated that Rusty needed a chance to mourn. Well, he's got the rest of his life to do that, doesn't he. Meanwhile, CFD FF are still trooping off to do their duty, trying to function safely with poor training and leadership that is too busy trying to cover it's butt to lead. I wouldn't have had such an issue with Rusty if I felt that he knew that he'd not done well by his men and was trying to improve their circumstances. Instead I feel like he's just trying to get himself out of a jam. If he came back to work on June 19th with a plan to prevent this incident from ever occurring again. If he hadn't intimidated his firefighters in order to cover his ass- This isn't the first time tragedy's struck. Does anyone remember Albright and Wilson? It appears that the leadership hasn't changed, in many ways. The city was levied fines in 1991 for the AW explosion- for not wearing proper bodyguard and scba. 33 people were injured and 2 killed. A screw-up of major proportions. Both times.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 4:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ward: Didn't nine people die in that AW fire?
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.live5news.com/news/state/9909...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 21, 2007 at 4:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta,
I believe that there were at least 4...might have been nine...I'll check..I tried to find news on that fire online..didn't see it...so much for Google
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 4:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It still, as Ward says, was a "screw-up of major proportions." Riley will have a "unique" legacy in his 32 year reign. I still believe a boycott of the city of Charleston by locals and all ffs from across the nation who travel in or near here would hurt the mayor in a big way---tourism.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
City of Charleston website says 9 were killed at then AW fire
Posted by WardLaFrance on September 21, 2007 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I didn't even think of the AW incident until someone else mentioned it, saying that OSHA levied heavy fines against the city at that time as well. That fire was what spurred Charleston County to upgrade/institute their HAZ-MAT program. To the best of my recollection, only two died but there were many injuries. I also seem to recall that Rusty was acting at the time, and it was shortly before he was actually promoted to chief. Someone with a better memory might have more/better details.
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
How does it hurt Riley if I don't have dinner at T-Bonz on the Market tonight? The only way to hurt him is at the polls.
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on September 21, 2007 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I will never leave - most of the ignorant people are senior citizens, so we won't have to wait long! Ding Dang! I was born here - just had the good fortune to be educated where they speak English and rank 1st in education. I am so sick you you "fake" polite people, you are mean-asses in your heart where it counts. Whoo - hoo! Ding! Dang!
Posted by nitelite on September 21, 2007 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Reader,
you stopped way short of what my statement was regarding schools. Just as in the case a "CHARTER" school can run, operate and administer to a school in a community, the city can do the same, even if it needs to make its case on the state level. the city does has power, especially in this city. Some of you may not know but Riley is behind the scenes right now orchestrating efforts with a group in this city concerning certain schools. Check with your constituent school biard members on this.
Posted by WardLaFrance on September 21, 2007 at 5:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I can't resist asking just where you were educated. I can see you learned all about ding dings.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 5:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ward, from reading some of the prior posts, "Why" is a North Charleston resident, that may be employed by the school system in some capacity
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 5:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ding? Dang? Whoo hoo? This has become ridiculous. I'm going to have a beer with some "relatively" intelligent folks at the pub down the street. Although you do make a good argument that a good education depends on what you put into it.
You probably should have put a little more...
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 21, 2007 at 5:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
According to an archived P&C article, nine people died in the Albright and Wilson fire on June 17, 1991.
http://archives.postandcourier.com/archi...
The article is dated 2001, most likely written in reflection of the 10th anniversary.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 5:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
yeahright: It won't hurt Riley at all if you have dinner at T-Bonz tonight. However, there are vast numbers of fire fighters across the nation, who make trips to the east coast, who make trips south and north. These ffs have a vast number of friends who also travel and, given the word by ffs, would gladly boycott the city of Charleston.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 21, 2007 at 6:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well now, the Albright Wilson article was interesting....
One of our own City Council members, Wendell Gilliard was the Union president for the plant back then. Wonder why he does not listen to the FF's Union now?????
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Anyone catch Channel 5 in the "call in section?" Rusty said emphatically he would NOT get rid of Rusty because he believes Rusty is a "seasoned, energetic" chief who is needed to put these panel suggestions in place. Well, DUH, Mayor, if the chief is so "seasoned" why didn't he put progressive, updated techniques, training and equipment in place PRIOR TO JUNE 18???? BOYCOTT!!!!! and DOCUMENTATION BY THE FFS!!!
Posted by Reader on September 21, 2007 at 6:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nitelite -
I think you and I probably agree on most of what this article is all about, but I have to disagree about the school issue. In South Carolina, a city cannot organize a public school. Public schools in Charleston County are the exclusive authority of the Charleston County School District.
Charter schools are just a type of public school which are approved by the county board and ultimately accountable to the county board, but which are overseen in their daily operations by someone else. More importantly, though, the only entities that can, by law, sponsor (that is, create) charter schools are either (1) individuals or (2) nonprofit companies. The City of Charleston is neither.
I think our discussion is probably getting a little far afield of the topic at hand though, so I'll let you have the last word if you still disagree with me about this.
Posted by yeahright on September 21, 2007 at 6:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One last one, then I'm gettin a beer...An entire race has supposedly been boycotting SC for years now because of the flag at the statehouse and an NAACP call for a boycott. I just don't think it's very effective. Certainly not as effective as voting him out of office. And the people hurt by these "boycotts" are waitresses with kids not politicians.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, yeahright, fire fighters are, by nature, tenacious and aggressive in many ways. If I were you, I would certainly not challenge them. Voting and boycott until decisions are made to keep the ffs safe and home at the end of EACH AND EVERY SHIFT.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Anyone catch the Channel 2 poll. 80% of the voters want Rusty out, 18% want him left in and the rest are indifferent.
Posted by RTC on September 21, 2007 at 6:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Charleston just got another promo on the Travel Channel. Anthony Bourdain did a special on the lowcountry and it's fine cuisine. Tourists are not likely to boycott the city. Locals might take their business elsewhere, but do people really want to hurt the private business owners in the city?
People need to pick places to boycott that will hurt Riley in a more personal way. Maybe his precious fish tank or his ballpark for starters?
Posted by OldChasFirefighter on September 21, 2007 at 6:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The AW fire was what caused Wilmot to retire and Rusty got his job. Rusty was a bat chief then.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 6:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
RTC: If Riley will not listen to the CFD ffs, if he will not listen to OSHA, if he will not listen to reason, perhaps the businesses in the city of Charleston can make him listen. As I said, I would not challenge the fire fighters of this country....they are a tight knit group.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 6:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BTW, RTC, I am sure that promo was filmed prior to the SSS fire.
Posted by vesta on September 21, 2007 at 6:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OldChasFF: Did Wilmot retire willingly or was he "forced out"?
Posted by RTC on September 21, 2007 at 6:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
vesta, I'm sure you are right about the filming date. The show was just aired the other night.
You are also right about firemen being closeknit. My husband was a fireman and a police officer over 28 yrs. ago,and he still feels a bond to these men.
Posted by