School backs Bible courseFort Dorchester class keeps it academic, teacher, students say The Post and Courier
Monday, September 10, 2007
Fort Dorchester class keeps it academic, teacher, students say What they're studyingStudents in Fort Dorchester High School's new Bible literacy class are preparing for their first test. Here are some discussion questions from material the class has studied so far: --Read from George Washington's first inaugural address. What words or sentiments from the Bible do you find? Look up Psalms 103:22-23, 95 to find particular references. --Read excerpts from Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address. Read Genesis 3:19, Matthew 7:1 and Matthew 18:7. How do these biblical passages and allusions relate to Lincoln's historical situation? --What are some characteristics of the Hebrew Scriptures? What similarities do you see between Jewish and Christian understanding and use of the Scriptures? Eighteen students at Fort Dorchester High School are using the Bible as a textbook this year. The principal, classroom teacher and students say no one should be alarmed and that the walls separating church and state — and keeping religion out of public schools — still stand. Dorchester District 2's recent decision to approve a new elective course called "History and Literature of the Old Testament and New Testament" has attracted a bevy of support among many who say biblical literacy is vital to a strong, well-rounded education. A visit on Friday revealed a classroom discussion touching on topics such as biblical references in George Washington's inaugural address and how the invention of the printing press enabled everyday people to access the Bible for the first time. There was no attempt to convert students or to push Christianity as the world's only worthy religion. Still, at least one Fort Dorchester parent plans to protest at tonight's school board meeting and has vowed to return until the board votes to get rid of the course. "I feel that school is no place to teach religion," said Nancy Seufert, who has two sons attending the school. "I will investigate every legal avenue that I can to see that this class is shut down." School leaders aren't backing down from the potential controversy, and they say they're pleased the school's class could serve as a model for the state. Fort Dorchester is the only high school in the Lowcountry that currently offers the Bible course. Principal Jim Atkinson said he's confident that English and history test scores will improve once students recognize Biblical allusions in literature and history texts. "We are expanding students' horizons," Atkinson said. "We aren't trying to win them over to Christianity. That's not the motive of this class. But anytime you pilot something, you know you are treading water where no one else has been." Nothing prevented school districts from offering literature or history- based Bible courses in past years, and at least six South Carolina school districts either were offering the course or were considering introducing it in 2005, according to the state Department of Education. But a law signed by Gov. Mark Sanford this spring gave outright permissionfor school districts to offer the class. Districts that favored Bible classes in the past, but perhaps were wary of challenges, now have a definite state law supporting them. Even with the state law, some districts might opt to wait to approve the course until state standards are in place. A committee charged with designing the standards will meet in Columbia this year and Laura Knotts, the veteran Fort Dorchester English instructor teaching the Bible class there, is a member of the panel. One of Seufert's biggest criticisms is that the Dorchester District 2 school board approved the course only a week before the start of the school year, with little debate or discussion at the board meeting. She questioned why board members and district administrators couldn't wait until official state standards were created. Knotts said she's using state English standards as her guide in the classroom this year. She's also basing the course on her years of experience in teaching English with biblical references at Clemson University and in China. "It never dawned on me that the Bible wouldn't be considered a natural part of our educational heritage," she said. "It helps explain more than 2,000 years of Western civilization, including law, history, art, music and literature." In addition to the Bible, Fort Dorchester students use a textbook called "The Bible and Its Influence," promoted by the Bible Literacy Project, one of two major organizations supporting Bible classes. The Bible Literacy Project has attracted far less criticism than course materials put forth by the other group, which is why Knotts said she chose to go with that textbook. Officials with Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a religious liberty watchdog group challenging Bible courses across the country, said the Bible Literacy Project's curriculum is preferable to other alternatives but still has problems. The textbook uses an inaccurate quote from Alexis de Tocqueville, members of the Washington-based group said, and the Bible Literacy Project removed passages that were considered offensive to the religious right. "The fundamental issue with all of the courses across the nation is that they take one set of Holy Scriptures and treat them as a special class," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director. "To take the majority religion and devote a special class to it suggests it's the most important and most accurate religion to be found." But Knotts said the Bible does merit its own course. Students interested in exploring religions besides Christianity or Judaism can take a global studies elective course at Fort Dorchester, which compares religions around the world, she said. And because the Bible class is an elective, students who are opposed to it don't have to sign up for the course, she said. The 18 students enrolled in the class said they don't understand why so many concerns have been raised. Simone Charron dropped an International Baccalaureate psychology class so she would have room in her schedule for the Bible course. She said some of her friends have questioned her, telling her that they don't agree with mixing school and religion. "I tell them we view the Bible as just another big history book," she said. "We aren't forcing religion on anybody." Junior Ethan Jones said students learn about evolution in science class, so it's only fair that school also exposes them to biblical theories of creationism. In past years, students who have mentioned the Bible during other courses have been hushed, junior Julian Kyle Johnson said. He said he's glad he now has the freedom to discuss the book at school, and he invites the doubters to come see for themselves. "We aren't a group of evangelicals like The 700 Club," Johnson said. Reach Mindy B. Hagen at mhagen@postandcourier.com or 937-5433. |
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Posted by sjmehlhose on September 10, 2007 at 5:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The Bible and it's principles are the foundation of our country and government, NOT Buddism, Islam or any other religion. And by the way, our constitution never says anything about a wall of seperation between church and state. What our constitution says is that Congress shall not establish a religion (there is a world of difference between the two). This is simply a history class designed to put our history into full context.
Posted by ConcernedDorchesterCitizen on September 10, 2007 at 6:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
To Sjmehlhose,
This is based on a literature class - not a history class. When I went to school - the class was supposed to be one where all sides are discussed. This class is only about the positive influence of the bible. Where is the discussion about how the pastors in the south used the bible to encourage slavery? What about discussions on the Salem Witch trials?
I don't think our school board has the childrens best interest at heart!
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 6:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm glad to see this as well, as are most people I know
this isn't a religion thing it's a literature thing, we put our right hand on a bible for many oaths in this country because this country is based on it... like it or not
the least we can do is teach why that is to our children
you don't agree? simple, don't put your kids in that class
Posted by sjmehlhose on September 10, 2007 at 6:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Regardless of whether the Bible was perverted and twisted by some in history to justify wrong behavior (slavery as it was practiced in the American South, and the Salem Which trials), doesn't mean that it wasn't the foundation of our country. The Continental Congress couldn't come to any consensus until they had a Christian Pastor lead them in prayer (which is still practiced today). George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and most other Founding Fathers based their decision making on the Bible. In fact, the prevailing view at the foundation of this country was that if a man wasn't a Christian, he wasn't fit to hold office in this country, and that view served us well for many, many years. In fact, this country would be a better and stronger nation if we got back to those basics.
Posted by proud2bme on September 10, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
sjmehlhose,
well said!! No futher comment needed in my opinion.
aliyka,
our country was not founded on Buddhism!!
Posted by trm2105 on September 10, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Posted by trm2105 on September 10, 2007 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Posted by prosperous_hb on September 10, 2007 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think this is a good idea to have this class offered. Anyone ever noticed how much problems the schools has been having since they took our prayer? It's amazing how people in this country don't respect the Bible & God, but they are always using it. They use it to swear in our public and national officials. Who's name is all over our money...."IN GOD WE TRUST."
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ali no one said buddhism didn't have morals, it simply just isn't and never was the religion of this country
you people in the minority think no one likes you because you are a minority, it has nothing to do with you or your minority beliefs... get over yourselves will you, no one downed you
"If you ask me the Dali Lami is a prime example for how people should behave"
nobody asked you, and no matter what you try to argue it's a mute point... this country was founded on Christian beliefs, period
you don't like that? go pray to budda about it... lol
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree that it would be just as appropriate to teach classes that deal with other religious texts AS LITERATURE. But, this is not about teaching Christian values and beliefs. This is about studying and analyzing a literary text -- one of the most widely read literary texts. Most people have no problem with the use of texts like "Paradise Lost" being taught in schools. And if there is any one piece of literature with a staunchly Christian message, that would be it.
Posted by majorjohnson on September 10, 2007 at 8:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Like I've said before, if I believed this might have something to do with education I'd be OK with it, but Christians have repeatedly attempted all sorts of schemes to force their religion into the schoolhouse, so I suspect this is more of the same. It's about Christians doing whatever it takes, including outright deceit, to expose your children to faith because, as geechie said, "many of them are not getting any guidance at home." This is another back-door attempt to "guide" your children to religion. That's what school prayer was. For the people who believe a prayer should be said every morning it wasn't enough that their children prayed every morning, they wanted to use the school system (the government) to get your child to pray too in case you weren't teaching them to do it yourself.
As far as posting the 10 commandments, which version? Do you know how many versions there are? I guess you mean one of the various translations of the Hebrew by Christians, like King James, rather than one of the versions used by the Jews. As far as the first commandment, it hardly seems appropriate to teach children that they may worship no god but yours. Per the second, anyone seen a cross with Jesus nailed to it lately? Like at a church where you kneel before it and pray in Jesus name, or hanging on your wall, or maybe even from your rear view mirror?
Per the first amendment, it states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;", not that congress shall not establish a religion, though that would certainly be part of it. It was a requirement made by the colonies themselves before they would ratify the constitution because they feared religious indoctrination of the people by the government. Madison himself (you know, the guy they call the father of the constitution) was just as fearful of the clergy becoming involved in government or vice versa as he was of pure democracy. He held that governance should be governance, and religion religion, and that they could never be mixed with one another without corrupting both.
Per putting your hand on the bible to swear an oath, last time I swore an oath in court there was no bible involved.
Per Christian office holders, please read article VI of the U.S. Constitution. We've had Buddhist, Shinto, Jewish, atheist and Muslim federal office holders, the earliest being a Jew appointed by President Jefferson, who himself was not exactly a supporter of the Christian faith. You might also look up Francis Salvador if you don't know who that is.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 8:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Very eloquently put, Majorjohnson! Besides, if we are so into teaching the Christian values that this country was founded on, we can stick with "The Crucible" and "The Sacrlet Letter"!!
As for me, I would like to believe that those teaching this course are able to teach it objectively.
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 8:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
major you have it backwards... Christians aren't trying to force anything, never have
it's the other religions and non religious people that have tried to force the Bible and praying OUT of school for hundreds of years
your whole argument won't hold water because it's based on your own lie and deceit... schools began with prayer, it wasn't added later
as hard as you try you can't rewrite the true history of this country
no one's forcing any kid to go to that class, but you opposer's sure want to force someone out of that class...
so who's trying to force who?? lets see what other non-issue you find to fight about
why do we make threads go clockwise on most bolts? musta been budda, we have to change that... lol
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"you people in the minority think no one likes you because you are a minority, it has nothing to do with you or your minority beliefs... get over yourselves will you, no one downed you"
WOW!! With statements like this one, I wonder how in the world minorities (a.k.a. "you people") feel as if they must fight to be heard and understood, much less tolerated by some.
Posted by majorjohnson on September 10, 2007 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Per in god we trust, that was placed on coins only in the 1860s, hardly indicative that the founders wanted such a mix of religion and government. Roosevelt objected strongly to it during his Presidency. It wasn't till 1956 that it appeared on the one dollar silver certificate. It wasn't until 1966 that it was placed on other denominations.
Some of you may be old enough to remember our national motto was E Pluribus Unum. That was what was printed on our money until 1966 took it off of the last bills.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
also: "Christians aren't trying to force anything, never have"
REALLY??????
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
yepp really halfsheli...
"WOW!! With statements like this one, I wonder how in the world minorities (a.k.a. "you people") feel as if they must fight to be heard and understood, much less tolerated by some."
and your problem with that is exactly what? you don't want me to call the minority a minority? you'd rather me say they are the majority so they "feel" better?
you're just looking for something to poke at, try a little harder
officer I can't say that was a "red" light I ran, I have to include the other colors as well... lol
Posted by clw on September 10, 2007 at 9:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
hafsheli, I read that comment too, and about fell out of my chair in disbeleif.
I am all for this class, from a literary and historic viewpoint. The Bible is alluded to in many other literary works and this class will only help those students in the future. What i am worried about is it being turned into a religion course (which by the student quotes it sounds like it has), but that is okay as long as other alternatives are offered. Why is Buddhist philosophy not valid b/c it is not our country's founding religion? What about Islam? These religions have texts that have historical and literary value. Teach them as well.
"you don't like that? go pray to budda about it... lol"...right there is one reason why other cultures dislike the US so much right now.
"If there is no knowledge, there is no understanding; if there is no understanding, there is no knowledge." — The Talmud
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No, you can call a minority a minority. Just try not to do it with such disdain and superiority.
Posted by mac0cm4 on September 10, 2007 at 9:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It's a clear case of the misuse of public funds. The course may be elective for students, but it sure isn't elective for the taxpayers. If they want to offer that class, then the students who want to take it should fund it fully - not the taxpayers. By teaching this class it provides the impression (which is likely true) that the district favors this religion.
Religion is often a double standard: "Religion is good - unless it's not my religion."
Posted by Hubert on September 10, 2007 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
All schools should teach religion. All religions. But with over 100 religions it would be kind of tough. As long as the students realize the Bible is a book, and not based on fact should be taught.
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ok halfsheli I got you, it wasn't typed meaning anything in a derogatory way by any means
the minorities obviously have been programmed to immediately take certain statements a certain way no matter what the intention, that's part of the problem
others have been trying to program the majority to apologize for every little statement that "might" be offensive to someone else, it's getting ridiculous... a white man has to censor everything he says now because so many people are just sitting at the ready to jump on him no matter how good his intentions really were
lets censor everyone equally then, if we're all for equal rights ... we'll see how far any converstaion can get like that
I didn't insult any minority so if you "fell out" of your chair I suggest you get back up before you catch a cold from the draft
that was just a joke about budda clw, and I'm not planning on pandering to any other culture anyway... no one panders to mine
Posted by LarryCarterCenter on September 10, 2007 at 10:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Pro Christian bias is why this King James Bible & some pseudo neutral companion textbook is being "taught."
You can bet money that obscene, violent & pro-abortion passages will not be read aloud in Fort Dorchester HS.
The 18 students, principal & teacher are all conspiring to establish their dominance over all other religions violating secularity. If it were truthfully "academic" the the history of the book being branded OFFICIAL OBSCENITY under the Comstock Law would be taught. The facts of President McKinley pardoning Charles Chilton Moore would be told.
There can not be possibly neutral standards about a phantasmagorical book, any more than state standards could be written to be respectful towards the Texas Chainsaw Massacre film.
Try Hosea 13:16 for a violent abortion passage, ethnic cleansing of Samarian women & children.
Theocracy is treason. Enforce Article 6.
Posted by charlene68 on September 10, 2007 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
In the pledge of allegiance it has " one nation under god" and the pledge is still said in school. So I feel like that whatever religion anyone is, if they want to say the blessing before a meal or pray in school, that should be their perrogative to do so. So to me that is not seperation of Church and state, so see people God is in the State to, as a matter of Fact everyone thta signed the Declaration of Independance was Christian accept for 5. I know everyone is not the same and everyone has different beliefs. Everyone also has the freedom of speech and should be able to pray or to say grace or whatever, whther it is in school or not and whther they are praying to Buddha , or God or to whomever it maybe as long as it does not interfee with their studies or disrupt the class.
Posted by Chancellor on September 10, 2007 at 10:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Let me start by stating that I serve a mighty God. Those of you who need an education on other religions need to read one of 2 books: "Dinner With a Perfect Stranger" by David Gregory, or "But Don't All Religions Lead to God?" by Michael Green. This nation was built on the Christian principle, and the decline of this great nation can be directly alligned with the decline of practicing Christians.
Psalm 33:12: "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."
Unfortunately, we have become a nation of the offended. Everything offends somebody. There are plenty of things that offend me, but rather than try and deny those of you who enjoy these things, I simply avoid them.
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:18-20 NIV
Posted by mountain on September 10, 2007 at 10:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas Jefferson also said, " Christianity is the greatest philosophy no one has ever tried." I agree with him. It is not the Bible that is at fault but those who use the Bible for their on personal agenda. You cannot ban the truth and you cannot legislate morality. I have no problem with teaching all religions in school. However, the growth of an individual will have more to do with what is on inside than anything they read on the outside. Any objective study will revel that the breakdown of the traditional family unit has more of an affect on students than anything they learn in school.
Posted by Test2007 on September 10, 2007 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
umm navy, God didn't write the bible. Why the hell do people keep saying that? You think God wrote the bible in English too don't ya? Yeah whatever. The four major religions (judaism, christianity, and the muslim religion) are all based on the first scrolls. Each one is basically a dif interpretation of the scrolls and you can bet your butt that the others think christianity is just as hackneyed as you just explained their religions. Let us talk about conversion, so you're saying that christians are not into converting? Umm, even in the church I grew up in we had something called missionaries. Guess what there jobs were? Helping sick, poor and CONVERTING.
PS there were no christians in the bible
Posted by kaylee on September 10, 2007 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Public schools - With all the killings going on everywhere it seems like people would want some type of right and wrong taught. Listen to the music or watch T.V. Look on the street signs. Girls some as young as 11 years old giving birth to babies. Girls getting raped in schools, Boys and girls going in the bathrooms for sex, also on the buses. Drug dealings going on.You want it they got it. The older kids selling younger kids a picture out of playboy/ playgirl for $10.00 and up. Get cigs, they sell for $6.00 & up. Teachers having sex with kids. Alcohol depends on what you want $6.00 and up. All of this going on and more and you are worried about a bible that teaches all against this. That is really scary, and we want to know whats wrong with America. Don't think this doesn't happen in your childs public school, you need to think twice. I promise it is.
Posted by 4Real on September 10, 2007 at 11:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by trm2105 on September 10, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe we shouldn't quote religious concepts that come from a guy whose family tree has way too many branches on it.
The bottom line is that most religions dictate at their core that we should be good to each other, that we shouldn't take things that don't belong to us, that we shouldn't cause harm to others, etc. I don't see what can be bad about that.
Also, this country WAS founded by people who fled to escape religious persecution, and those people were Christians. I don't think anyone's trying to say that Christians are better than any other religion; it's just that... well, why would we teach the history of Oregon in our South Carolina History classes? We don't live in Oregon. Nothing against anyone from Oregon, but we live in South Carolina. The United States didn't start as a Muslim or Islamic or even Jewish country. We were founded by a bunch of God-fearing Christians. Also, for many people, the Bible was the only book they owned. Anyway, it's not a far stretch to see why the Bible has influenced so many texts and concepts in the formative years of our country, and it's not a stretch to see why some folks might look at it from a historical perspective.
What is more frightening than these historical teachings is how easy a target white men and Christians have become. Jeez Louise! If you are Christian, people can say whatever they want about you. Chill out, people. You are campaigning so hard for your own rights that you are trampling over someone else's.
Posted by someone on September 10, 2007 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I feel your pain NN
Posted by greyrider on September 10, 2007 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The key word here is that this class is "offered" to students. I could understand the objection if it were mandatory. As far as "all sides being presented" that is up to the teacher and the students. There should be the same freedom of speech within that classroom to discuss all sides. Here's something that most of those objecting have probably never heard from a Christian. I'm against the idea of saying America was founded as a Christian nation. The truth is we were founded as a "Biblical" nation. The difference is that the founding fathers quoted the Old Testament more often than the New Testament. Many of them studied Hebrew Old Testament law under Dr John Witherspoon (at the future Princeton University). This country was founded on the values shared by Christians and Jews. In fact, many Muslims also reverence parts of the Old Testament, granted not to the level that Christians and Jews do, but these are not ideas and values of a select few. In regards to the Salem Witch trials, keep this in mind. There are 35,000 different Christian denominations. I'll be the first to say, I wouldn't let my kids within 100 feet of some of them. Think of it this way. I drive a Ford F-150. If someone else drives like a lunatic in an F-150 and kills a family of four, I'm not selling my truck. Also, if this is what you are thinking, (with all due humility as far as my opinion) the extreme majority of televangelists are clueless. That is NOT Christianity. If the teacher of the class denies any student in the class the right to a dissenting view, that would be wrong, but until that happens, this class appears to be very appropriate in an American classroom.
Posted by somebody on September 10, 2007 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by NancyN on September 10, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"somebody" help us when tinytrinitytim gets home from work and sees THIS article.
____________
help is on the way NN from...
"somebody"
Posted by skeeter on September 10, 2007 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
God wrote the Bible?
Posted by bhippey on September 10, 2007 at 11:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
We need to keep religion out of schools. That is what churches are for.
Posted by Test2007 on September 10, 2007 at 12:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
4real, check your tree. How many branches are in it? Ya never know buddy, you live in the South. Anything can happen. I always thought the USA was founded (questionable term since a group of people was already here but anyway) by puritans who left England for the same reason we are having this convo. If we want to adopt anything we shop adopt the puritan way since that is the true way we were founded (yeah right) on. So, white men and christians are targets? To quote a popular comedian, "If ya'll are losing, who is winning?" This country is basically run by white christian men. So where the hell do you get your info.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Very well put, Greyrider. As a "die-hard" agnostic, I am completely disillusioned by the closed-mindedness of so many of those 35,000 Christian denominations. It is refreshing and even uplifting to hear from an open-minded and articulate Christian.
Posted by southerngirl on September 10, 2007 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with you Greyrider. No one is forcing these kids to take a religion class, it is elective, and it's not a religion class, it is a class based around a piece of literature. That is what they are looking at, how this one piece of literature influenced so much in history, and still today. Why are parents of kids who aren't even IN that class trying to shut it down? If a child WANTS to take a Bible class, why would you stop them? This class is only offering another form of literature for students to learn and grow from, and if you or your child has nothing to do with it, taht's your choice, but don't punish others for your choice because then it is YOU who is forcing YOUR ideals on people.
Posted by crankyyankee on September 10, 2007 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No one is forcing anybody to take the course but we are all forced to pay for it through taxes. If you want it taught why don't you pay for it yourself! That's what I thought! You could teach this in conjuction with sex ed and show the kids all the ways the Government can stick it to you!
Posted by majorjohnson on September 10, 2007 at 1:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey 4real...mommas baby, daddies maybe. Check your own branches bud.
Per one nation under god in the pledge, that was inserted into the pledge by the same congress in the 1950's that put in god we trust on the first paper money and changed the national motto (one that had stood for 180 years since being chosen by the founders). The original pledge specifically left out any reference to god so that all could pledge to the flag. Not only was god left out for good cause, there was nothing about the United States in the pledge either. The pledge was written so that all people of all faiths and nationalities could recite the pledge together. The changes to the pledge, the money and the national motto were an attempt to create a greater divide between the godless communists and the United States during the cold war. Please quit reciting things that have occured within my lifetime as implying Christian intent by the founders of the nation 230 years ago.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 1:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
By this logic, why would anyone pay (through taxes) for ANY course that they choose not to take. I do not want to be a part of any class having to do with advanced mathematics. You math folks out there pay for your own stinking math classes.
Posted by 4Real on September 10, 2007 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"4real, check your tree. How many branches are in it? Ya never know buddy, you live in the South."
Ok, now I'M offended! Why do you assume I'm Southern or a "buddy", and if I am, why do you assume that I must have a storied family tree?
My reference was to the fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with more than one woman, and also fathered them with women he claimed as "property" (i.e., slaves), so he is not much of a moral compass for me.
I started looking at these comments out of curiosity, and I regret registering and making a comment myself. Most of you seem like you just need to bitch about something.
Here's a topic: The sky is blue. Discuss amongst yourself.
Posted by crankyyankee on September 10, 2007 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
halfshell, we need mathematicans, we don't need preachers and holy rollers to threaten us with exclusion or Hell. Better yet teach the kids about my God she's a pip!
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 1:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
my kids were forced to learn black history in class in a public school, I didn't have a choice and there was no white history to balance it out... why should I not only have to pay for that but my kids HAVE to take it when it's not my heritage?
there wasn't an American Indian history class/month/day, no Anglican class/month/day, no Asian history class/month/day etc etc... but we had to pay for it as parents still do
and now my kids are in private school and I still have to pay for public school with my taxes... why??
why don't I cry about all that like some of you?? because I'm American first and then everything else I wish to flavor it with for entertainment sake later
it's my duty as a fellow American to pitch in whenever I can, for whoever it is that needs it without respect to race, creed or religion
when we got hit in 9/11 do you think all the people out there jumping to help asked for green cards first? or what religion are you? or what race? etc etc...
at the end of the day I try to remember we really are all in this world together and will need each other at some time or another, differences aside
maybe I'm wrong but I would help anyone of you in your time of need even if I think your beliefs are totally ridiculous, some of us just get tired of always being the one that has to bend on things
the "white people" running this country has absolutely nothing to do with me, I'm just a little squirrel in a tree trying to find a nut but somehow I get blamed for things that I've never done or believed in... that's how many feel
it's just a lit class on a subject that has helped shaped our entire world, so it is kind of important to most
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So what you're saying is that a course about the Bible that is taught with strictly a literary and historical focus will create holy rollers and preachers? Perhaps it will also produce a few free and critical thinkers.
Posted by 4Real on September 10, 2007 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think the horse is dead. You can quit beating it now. None of you are going to change anyone else's minds. Obviously.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
With objectivity, the Bible can be seen from another angle:
It is a collection of stories (with moral and ethical implications -- like most of ANY literature) written by fallable men. It was originally written in ancient languages, and has been translated into modern languages. If the discrepancies in translations aren't enough, the powers-that-be as well as the scribes translated, interpretted, omitted, and created passages in the Bible to mirror their values and beliefs. What we have today is a very watered-down and politically charged version of what the Bible might have once been.
As one who studies literature, the Bible is fascinating. It provides much of the historical and moral context that we find in other great literary works: "Paradise Lost", "The [Divine]Comedy", "The Alchemist" -- my, the list will NEVER end!
If viewed in this light, what harm can this class be except to promote objective learning.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 2:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
With objectivity, the Bible can be seen from another angle:
It is a collection of stories (with moral and ethical implications -- like most of ANY literature) written by fallable men. It was originally written in ancient languages, and has been translated into modern languages. If the discrepancies in translations aren't enough, the powers-that-be as well as the scribes translated, interpretted, omitted, and created passages in the Bible to mirror their values and beliefs. What we have today is a very watered-down and politically charged version of what the Bible might have once been.
As one who studies literature, the Bible is fascinating. It provides much of the historical and moral context that we find in other great literary works: "Paradise Lost", "The [Divine]Comedy", "The Alchemist" -- my, the list will NEVER end!
If viewed in this light, what harm can this class be except to promote objective learning.
Posted by skeeter on September 10, 2007 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nuke all the gay whales for Jesus!
Posted by mggoose2000 on September 10, 2007 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"KEEP CUTTING ME OUT OF YOUR LIVES AND THE LIVES OF YOUR CHILDREN, I'm watching and I will visit you soon!"
Signed,
GOD
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 2:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
When God visits, will he need a place to stay? Will I need to make up the extra bed? Will he be expecting dinner? I'll probably need to hide the porn, too. I hope it's not on a Friday; that's gonna cut into happy hour!
Posted by mggoose2000 on September 10, 2007 at 2:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
When the skies part and the mighty trumpets sound, you non-blievers will look around and notice that some of us are missing. Pity you when all you can do is post your silly and insignificant comments with no promise of anything better. I'll pray for you.
Posted by 4Real on September 10, 2007 at 2:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jesus is coming!
Look busy!
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks, and I'll have a drink for you.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And by the way, I don't need to share your beliefs or worship your god to have a promise of something better. I wonder what your god thinks of your condescension?
Posted by bhippey on September 10, 2007 at 3:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't have a problem with teaching religion in school AS LONG as it is KEPT an ELECTIVE. If the kids choose to take the class and aren't told or expected to, that's ok. The day they make it mandatory is the day I raise hell. One thing though, how come when I was a senior at Summerville, they stopped saying the pledge? Wasn't it something about having the words UNDER GOD in them?! They almost did away with the moment of silence as well. If you don't want your kids saying UNDER GOD in the pledge, it's not mandatory they say it. They don't have to say the pledge PERIOD. I'm agnostic, but it should be the children's choice, no one elses. If years from now my son has an interest in church and God, I will have no problem letting him attend services. I won't accompany him, his father will have to, but I'm not going to tell him he can't do something because I don't believe in it. I think that is wrong. Just like "Christians" and other religious groups should NEVER force their beliefs on people. I'm sick and tired of the churchs coming by our neighborhood trying to recruit, and when you tell them you aren't interested, they come around THAT MUCH MORE. It's quite ridiculous. I'm going to answer the door naked next time and see if they still show up.
Posted by bhippey on September 10, 2007 at 3:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's takes a tragedy to bring a country together. That's really sad.
Posted by SCdeacinNYC on September 10, 2007 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why do you have to be a non-believer if you believe in freedom of religion? I consider myself a definitive "believer" but I think as Americans we should be weary of one-sided views in general.
If this were a class that is teaching the principles of Christian tradition historically and academically...I would be OK with it but ONLY if it were accompanied by a class that the very least gave a similar introduction to world religions. A little open-mindedness and awareness of other cultures, religions and societies besides your own never hurt anyone. Since there are courses like this it seem like the intentions are good
However, having said that, I am wondering if this is a way of backdooring Christianity into the public schools as majorjohnson stated earlier. I took Intro to Christian Tradition in undergrad as well as a World Religion class and both were valuable. But something tells me that the critical insight we made into the "bible" as well as chrisitan tradition as a whole will be missing from this course, just by the way it seems to have been structured.
ALSO, people please stop saying we were founded as a "biblical" or "christian" nation. We were founded by people who traveled here because they were persecuted because of their puritan christian beliefs. The values instituted into our Constitution and hailed by the "founding fathers" may share some similarities with Christian values, but the same can be said about EVERY OTHER MAJOR RELIGION (even those outside the big three), and also derive from natural law, ancient greek philosophy as well as prominent political theorists at the time. And many of the founding fathers were extremely vocal about the need for freedom of religion (why people fled here in the first place), separation of church and state and the danger of the tyranny of the majority (what those here are threatening)
Posted by chozen24 on September 10, 2007 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It is sad that there are so many people who will perish for lack of knowledge. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think that all of us commenting (or arguing, or fighting, or agreeing) brings us all together everyday. Let's look at the bright side: this discourse is what it's all about. Logic and emotion. Expression. Good stuff.
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh, I get that! I was just taking it one step further!!!
Posted by bhippey on September 10, 2007 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
chozen: That's exactly what I am talking about. I suppose all non-believers are going to hell too, aren't they?! Well, if we believed in hell.
Posted by captivated on September 10, 2007 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe all the kids should take a class on the bible. Just think! They might need that knowledge when they get chosen to be on "Jeopardy"!
Posted by Test2007 on September 10, 2007 at 3:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jammer, I actually took white history in school. US History, SC History, World history, Economics, American Gov't and never SAW a black history class, asian class or native american class. Just because it doesn't say "white history class" or "white history month" does not make it any less about white history buddy. George Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Columbus, Einstein, Shakespeare, Mark Twain etc... Do you want to get me started on "white" literature? I am black, how much you want to bet that I know more about white history than black?????? It would make all the sense of the world if there wasn't a black history month BUT we all know that just like it was before it was created, black would be excluded and the same goes to asian history month and native american history month (Heck yeah they have their own months. If your school doesn't celebrate, do something about it.) probably because of people like you whose kids were "forced" to learn about black history. Well buddy if I had to learn about the great achievements of American (white) history, which i might add is NOT my heritage, then your kids can suck it up and do it as well.
PS No one blames you for being anything but ignorant, so cut the pity party.
Bible class - I took all the real religion classes I wanted in college (Went to a church affiliated college). Those classes are the real deal and were actually interesting. I took a Women in the Bible class that actually was set up very nicely. Not preachy, not judgmental but definitely was a good class. Not a fan of this high school "option".
Posted by SCdeacinNYC on September 10, 2007 at 3:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Though this is off topic...
Yes, also I have to agree with Test that Jammer posed his whole "my kids had to take black history" argument in a very silly and ignorant way. I have heard of very few acutal "black history courses" taught at high school level in South Carolina. One certainly did not exist at the high school I graduated from. I remember about a couple of weeks out of the month of February where we talked about the usuals (MLK, Rosa Parks, Jackie Robinson) and then had an embarassing trivia contest where teachers tried to encourage white students to participate and they only embarassed themselves and the entire school by jokingly answering Martin Luther King to every question. That wasn't funny. It was just pathetic. And Jammer if you are interested in "subject(s) that has helped shaped our entire world, and are "kind of important to most" what about a subject that at least shaped our great nation, the history of Black Americans as well as (Hispanic-Americans, Asian-Americans, Native Americans....shall I go on...)
Posted by skeeter on September 10, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm in the Jehovahs Witness Protection Program!
Posted by MHA on September 10, 2007 at 4:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I wonder if state or federal money is being spent to have the class. I don't want my tax dollars going to teach kids about religion, period. I don't live in Dorchester County, so I'm not worried about county tax dollars. Even as an elective, tax payer money is being spent on books, teacher's salaries and such. It's wrong. In my opinion, it's also just teaching more kids to be hypocritical, intolerant adults when they grow up. Spend YOUR money teaching YOUR kids religion. DON'T spend MINE.
As for what this nation was founded on.. it was founded on freedom of religion (including freedom from religion), NOT the Bible.
As far as I'm concerned, if organized religion did not exist in any form, we'd all be much better off.
I could go on and on about some of these posts, but I won't. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about their beliefs. I just don't like other's beliefs being crammed down my throat.. and YES.. me having to help pay for a class on religion when I think religion is a bad thing IS cramming it down my throat.
Don't "pray" for me and don't feel bad that I won't be able to go to your "heaven". I haven't met a god yet that I want to spend eternity with. Neither have you.
Posted by southernbeachbum on September 10, 2007 at 4:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hooray! Finally the public school system is showing some wisdom! No well educated person can understand literature, the arts, or the history of Western civilization without a knowledge of the Bible. Even our laws are based on the Bible! Knowledge of the Bible is so important, in fact, that it really should be a required course for graduation from high school, in my opinion.
Posted by Khanaji on September 10, 2007 at 4:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Had to log in and see what was up, seeing as I was jarred awake by the sound of large numbers of minds slamming closed
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 10, 2007 at 4:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I like how all these christian people say that the breakdown in morals, ethics, and an increase of bad behavior is a result of taking prayer out of schools. As an athiest, I would like to present a different view, my view of it. I think it is a result of puritinism combined with being "politically correct". Parents do not dicipline their kids because its not mis-behaving anymore, its kids "expressing themselves", on the other side of that, parents that do give their kids a good smack on the ass get hauled off to jail for child abuse. So where does that leave us? It makes me shake my head when I see people make such a big deal over a female nipple on TV, but violence is embraced in this country. Investigation after investigation on a "nipple slip" but I can see someone get their face shot off on prime time television? Where is the outcry? Making alcohol, sex, nudity, and such so taboo leads kids to want to know why these things are so "bad". Families that have to have both mommy and daddy working 16 hours a day because of the disappearance of good jobs to companies outside of the US because its cheaper for corporations that can mismanage themselfs and then look to the goverment to bail them out with your tax dollars. My point is people, it is more than "god" being taken out of schools that is leading to the breakdown of this country. Open your eyes, and your minds before its too late.
Posted by chozen24 on September 10, 2007 at 4:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
bhippey: it is not my place to judge you, I do not have a heaven or hell to put you into...I know only what I believe and what I stand for. God gives everyone free will. Just as you make up your mind as to what clothes to wear each day, you also make up your mind as to how you live your life and what spiritual foundation you wish to connect with. I will not debate heaven or hell with you, because I will not cast my pearls amoung the swine!
Posted by LarryCarterCenter on September 10, 2007 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It is very clear that the handful of zealots who want taxpayers to pay for textbooks published by a Christian Publisher & salaries of the conspiring teacher & principal & maintenance of the classroom & the panel in Columbia to set the "standards" all cost money which violates the Constitution. These same zealots have already posted their objections to Buddhism being taught. This is the King James Bible, not the Douay Catholic Latin Vulgate. This is not the Hebrew Bible. This is not the Quoran. This is not the Upanishads. This is not the Baghivad Gita. Zoroastrian writings or Shinto or Confuscianist sayings. This IS BIASED DISHONEST xians forcing their agenda for primacy INCOMPETENTLY, since all are illiterate & have not even read the 3 versions of the decalogue in their King James Bible.
We fought a revolution against the King George, Head of Church & State in England AND HIS DIVINE 'right' to rule over colonists without representation.
We've had our Constitution now 220 years. Article Six provides: "no religious test shall EVER be reqired for ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST under these United States."
What part of "no" don't you bible thumpers understand?
Students are free to write book reports on bibles.
Libraries do stock copies of this horrific KJBible.
It is: "obscene, unmailable matter." I did not write the Comstock Law, Anthony Comstock did & prosecuted CC Moore for the "crime" of mailing the Song Of Solomon through US Mails.
It took President McKinley to pardon him out of the Ohio Federal Penitentiary.
Of course the zealots of Ft Dorchester HS don't want that fact taught, just the bias & pro-xian primacy & fiction purported to be "history." As for literature, it is a hopeless confabulation of Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, German & Middle/English, more contemporeneous with Shakespeare than Constantine or any "pharoh."
Our nation was founded on freedom from theocracy.
Our civil war was fought over biblical defenses for slavery. Read the weekly sermons of 1860-1865 aloud in class. It is time that bible thumping be done off campus.
Taxpayers are already paying more in taxes because corrupt non-profits pay no taxes.
Theocracy is Treason. Enforce Art.6, Amendment One & 14.
Posted by MHA on September 10, 2007 at 4:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow... I just found out that, regardless of what else I do in my life, I cannot be well educated with an understanding of literature and the arts unless I have knowledge of the bible...
What a sad, narrow world some of you live in.
Cure the world... abolish religion.
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 4:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Test2007 and SCdeac if you believe you were taught white history without the label then that proves your own ignorance and you've fell for the extremest propaganda you have probably been raised with.
because it doesn't have a black label doesn't make it automatically a "white history" class or month, the majority of people here are white that's why the majority in the books are white... not because of race but because of numbers
I hear that lame argument often, that "whites" have every other month... that's another one of those big lies to get you noticed, and it is one of the many ways you keep yourselves seperated
believe it if you want, but don't expect anyone else to believe that crock ... it simple isn't true
no white class, white month, white college, white tv station, white music awards, etc etc etc...
only black people are afforded that false sense of security
but that's all another whole topic
teaching bible in school might teach you how to get along with others and make people realize that there is no need for a "black" or white anything
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 4:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
the civil war was fought over taxes the north wanted from the southern farms, not slavery... another one of the big lies people tell each other
it was about money, as usual
Posted by halfsheli on September 10, 2007 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It is NOT a class on religion; it is a class on the Bible. Stop making that wrong assumption. The class is designed to teach literature and history -- not religion, hatred, bigotry, intolerence, toilet cleaning or even typewriter maintenance.
Posted by skeeter on September 10, 2007 at 4:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wars are always about money. Either that or whos imaginary friend is the real one..
Posted by Test2007 on September 10, 2007 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeah so because white people are the majority what I learned doesn't count as white history?? Ok, who should I learn about in white history?
White Music Awards - Country Music Awards
White Television - CMT
White College - Bob Jones
See, it is ALL covered. Now tell me hwo is involved in this white history that I was never forced to learn in public school.
Jammer, you have taught me that there IS a reason why this is still all necessary. Ignoramuses like you just make my day. Extremist views? That's the pot calling the kettle black buddy.
Posted by SCdeacinNYC on September 10, 2007 at 4:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No jammer, the majority of the history is white because the people who wrote the history books were white.
And yes I am afraid as time has proven over and over again, in an "ideal" world, where we all skipped around in the rainbow and kissed butterflies, "color or race" wouldn't matter and we would NOT need separate days, months or whatever to recognize the accomplishments of non-White Americans. But the fact is, this is not an ideal world. This is the America, I grew up in. Where the contributions of individuals outside of America were ignored for generations, that are just now and barely at that being recognized for the real impact it had on shaping America.
True, the bible to an extent might teach color blindness, but America has not. And I wasn't raised in propaganda, but in reality. It is no lie, but the truth that I in my 12 or so year of public school education in South Carolina learned limited knowledge about Black and other non-White Americans' contributions to the nation in schools. I learned most of that from my parents and other resources. And I happy and proud to say that I know a little more than something about the histories of Americans of all religious and ethnic backgrounds and of cultures, nations and societies outside our own. Close-mindedness gets us no where, especially in an increasingly global world where American students are being left behind by their parents insistence on a linear path of education (lets just learn about ourselves!!)
It is exactly this sort of ignorance, and reliance on your own "extremist propaganda" The reason people have labeled it "white history" is because of the considerable lack of inclusion anyone besides Whites. And it is not because whites are the majority, it's because the history we are taught is often biased to the audience and by those who have written it. I would also applaud the day when we did not NEED a black history class, but that would only be the day where my child or your child can sit in a US History class and learn about an important figure in black history, hispanic-american history, native american history.....yes shall I go on again???
If you don't believe you were taught at-best "mostly" white american history....and if you don't think it is necessary for you children to learn anything outside of their own heritage (like GASP even learning about other religions) ...I say again the destruction of the American (and definitely South Carolinian) Education system is surely closer at hand than we thought.
Posted by Neponset on September 10, 2007 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
90+ comments on using the Bible in school. My take is that ed. has enough problems already. Adding religion to the equasion just makes things more difficult.
Posted by Reader on September 10, 2007 at 6:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Is there any place to actually view the syllabus for this class? I suspect that that would resolve a lot of the issues being argued here.
I hate the idea of the Bible being taught as history, and I am skeptical of having it taught just to enligthen our students about the significance of some character or plot from some other work. The Bible itself is not great literature; it might have INFLUENCED great literature, but it is not literature itself.
I'm also a little dubious that our students are even reading things like Paradise Lost which require some Biblical knowledge to comprehend in the first place. What sort of things did the other posters on this thread actually read themselves in high school that would have made more sense had they first had a class in the Bible? I honestly cannot think of any that I read in high school that fit that bill.
Posted by juniemoon1957 on September 10, 2007 at 6:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jammer.....you forgot....MIss White America pagent...and trintiytim? Did you work overtime? And where is Hawneena?
Posted by bhippey on September 10, 2007 at 7:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
you can't teach the bible and not push religion. the two go hand in hand. you don't see a buddhist reading our bible saying "great stories". the bible is a manual not a story book.
Posted by jammer on September 10, 2007 at 8 p.m. (Suggest removal)
you people's needle is stuck
got to love those old scratched up vinyls, they weren't too clear either
yawn...
Posted by majorjohnson on September 10, 2007 at 8:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think the color comments are especially funny in this conversation. Jesus would probably have looked a lot like most of the other people from that region...a bit like osama bin laden.
Aliyka is correct if she means that some, perhaps many of the Christian holidays were actually an attempt to steal the thunder from the holidays of other religions. Jesus was not likely to have been born in December, but it was a major holiday for pagans so that's the time that the powers in charge decided to celebrate it. Ditto for easter, it was an attempt to steal the passover celebration from the jews, which is actually kind of funny because they failed to realize that the jews use a different calendar.
Christians who fail to realise how their religion has been manipulated by people with agendas and politicians often are the same people who think that the founding fathers decided on the national motto of in god we trust and that that proves we were founded as a Christian nation. They take what they see today as a proof of yesterday. Even more confounding is that some of those people used to see the original motto, say the original pledge, yet maintain that they always were as they are now. Even I remember E Pluribus Unim, and I'm not exactly ancient, thank you very much. Already in god we trust is considered to have been sprouted alongside the constitution by those who use it to show original intent.
I guess alzheimers is all the rage now.
Posted by trinitytim on September 10, 2007 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NacyN... It was nice to see that you've been thinking about me today.
As for this topic, I have already made my position clear. I am free to believe what I want and each of you are free to believe what you want. I have no intention of trying to save you or convert you. Each of you have free will and choice. Use them as you think is best in your lives.
One final point. Each of us, including everyone on this board, will die one day. Because of my faith I do not fear death. I hope that each of you will reach a point where you can say the same thing.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Posted by 4Real on September 10, 2007 at 9:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by bhippey on September 10, 2007 at 7:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"you can't teach the bible and not push religion. the two go hand in hand. you don't see a buddhist reading our bible saying "great stories". the bible is a manual not a story book."
Actually, I have a friend who teaches at a Christian school, and her children go to the school, even though they're Jewish. I asked how she handled the religion classes, which are Old Testament and New. Of course, Old Testament isn't the issue, New Testament is, but she says "The same way you view Greek Mythology... I can't believe they actually think this is the way it is, but it's interesting..."
There's nothing wrong with being open minded and hearing about new things. I have been to every kind of church/synagogue/prayer meetin' there is, from Catholic to Baptist to Jewish to Mormon to Jehovah's Witness... I even knew some Wiccans... but you gather information and choose what fits you. I wish I had been exposed to more when I was younger, but I did branch out in my late teens and was fortunate enough to have parents that didn't try to get all PC on me. If my school had Bible classes, my mother would have said, "You can never get too much information."
Posted by skeeter on September 10, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
When you Christians talk about doing what the Bible says do how do you pick and choose which things are important and which things are not.Why do you swear on a Bible when Jesus said in Matt 5:33-37 Not to take an oath. "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no".
Jesus also says in Mark 16:18 that you can drink deadly poison and it won't hurt you but I guess you all will say I'm taking it to literaly. So which things do I take literally and which things at face value and how do I know that your interpretation is right.
Posted by Swanwalker on September 10, 2007 at 10:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nancy Seufert - the things I'd love to say about you - only you're the type that sues everyone and everything. Good luck! I hope you become very wealthy. At any rate, has anyone taken a look around to see this world we are living in? It is an awful, awful place. And, America is in the middle of it. We are a victim of our own freedoms. Because of Pea-brained Liberals, we have broken from what has made our country so great. We don't want anyone to be offended, right? I swear, some tree worshipper is going to demand that a tree class be taught. And, just to avoid a lawsuit, these kids will be taught to worship a tree. There has been a complete degradation of morals in our country, and the moral code comes from one place - AND IT DOESN'T COME FROM A TREE. The moral code that most kids have forgotten about comes from the Bible. It needs to be taught, over and over again. If parents are offended, then leave the country. It's time we start taking pride in our country again. But, I don't think that will happen. The history books will one day talk about the fall of an empire. Maybe I should move to Ireland.
Posted by hmschlmomma on September 10, 2007 at 10:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Now I remember why I homeschool. :-)
Posted by bdr231 on September 10, 2007 at 11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I do not agree with organized religion, but I still think that this class is a good idea.
Posted by charlene68 on September 11, 2007 at 8:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
MHA as you do not want your tax money spent on Bible classes, I do not want mine Spent on Sex Education. they can learn all the SEX ed they want to in the Street and I can teach them that at home and it wont cost me a dime !!! anyone agree ???
Posted by eyfigueroa on September 11, 2007 at 10:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
hmschlmomma, this is why I wished that I homeschooled my children:
the fear of meeting people whose minds are so closed (on all sides).
But alas, they have to face ignorance at some point.
Fortunately for them, i've given them tools to make their own decisions: tolerance, logic, empathy, respect and a full knowledge of the world's differences.
Posted by Swanwalker on September 11, 2007 at 10:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Nancy,
You're welcome for the 2 deployments I've been on to defend the right you have to run your big mouth.
Posted by hmschlmomma on September 11, 2007 at 11:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Eyfigureoa, you have to give your kids those tools, the government sure won't. Some parents just don't care.
Swanwalker: Thank you for all you do to defend our freedoms.
Posted by Swanwalker on September 11, 2007 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yep, Nancy. I am sure most of our Men and Women would be just fine without a "thanks" from you. I'll just be happy knowing that you will wake up warm in your bed tomorrow, living in the USA. You'll wake up and get on your computer to complain about this and that. I am here in Afghanistan, and I see the mud huts that these families live in. Extreme poverty. Don't you worry about that. You just sit your happy little a## right there and watch TV and eat some chips. After that, I hope you get in your car tomorrow and order the best Big Mac you have ever had. Then, go to the mall and buy a rainbow sticker. Something tells me that you are quite angry. Who made fun of you? Are you fat?
Posted by Swanwalker on September 11, 2007 at 12:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hmschlmomma,
YOU are welcome. Nancy, I might not be able to post for a bit. I am over in AFGHANISTAN watching United 93 to remind myself why I do what I do. It also helps me to forget people like you, and keeps me focused on the real task at hand. By the way, it's AVE MARIA, and "cigaretts" is missing an "e." Enjoy the Big Mac, big sister.
Posted by Swanwalker on September 11, 2007 at 10:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow! Nancy! I must've really made you mad. You decided to send me a personal e-mail after I asked if you were fat. I must have really hit a "soft spot" with you. I was told never to tell a woman she's fat. Well, I see what it does. I made a perception about you without even seeing you. I must be psychic. I never knew you could be so crude. As far as the gay comment.... Well, the BIBLE teaches that homosexuality is wrong. So, I never went down that path. Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not in Iraq, I'm in Afghanistan. Not that it matters to you. Enjoy the doughnut.
Posted by threedimensionalman on December 2, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This is to all of the sad, misinformed and uneducated that have posted here that have said that this nation was created on biblical principles and that out founding fathers were xtians or biblical regurgitators: The Christian Nation Myth - http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/f....
This essay is backed up by historical data that anyone can find in their local library.
Clear the fog from your minds.