Fire probe concerns riseNational union calls for federal oversight of state OSHA investigation By Glenn Smith (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Friday, September 7, 2007
National union calls for federal oversight of state OSHA investigation 
A national firefighters union is calling for federal oversight of a state investigation into possible safety violations at the Charleston Sofa Super Store blaze where nine firemen died. The International Association of Fire Fighters has grave concerns about the state Occupational Safety and Health Administration's handling of the probe, spokesman Jeff Zack said. Among other things, OSHA assigned the investigation of the nation's worst firefighting loss since the 9/11 terrorist attacks to an inspector who had never investigated a fatal fire, he said. "How in heck can he investigate a fire in which nine guys were killed?" he asked. The investigator also allowed one of the Charleston Fire Department's chief officers to sit in on interviews with firefighters, Zack said. He described the move as "pure intimidation." The union has contacted the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration and requested that the agency monitor the state probe and review its findings, Zack said. He said federal officials told the union that they were "keeping an eye on the situation," and confirmed that the state's upcoming report would cite the city fire department for safety violations. A federal OSHA spokesperson on Thursday denied that the agency had received a request to intervene in the Charleston probe. South Carolina OSHA officials would not comment directly on the ongoing investigation. State OSHA officials did say that the federal agency has no jurisdiction or experience investigating municipal fire departments. The agency stated that its lead investigator in the Charleston probe is fully versed in workplace safety laws and has inspected fire departments in the past. In addition, employees providing information always have the right to a confidential interview, the agency said. Ted Austin, Charleston's safety management director, said he sat in on 20 or so OSHA interviews with city firefighters. The fire department's training officer, Battalion Chief Ricky Shriver, attended three or four of the sessions, Austin said. The city needed information for its internal review of the blaze and wanted to spare firefighters from having to tell their stories multiple times, Austin said. Firefighters were given the option of a private interview with OSHA, but only one requested that Shriver not be present, he said. The OSHA investigator later contacted firefighters at their homes and gave them another chance to speak their minds, Austin said. "None of them had anything further to offer, and none requested an additional interview," he said. Zack argued that having Shriver and a city official in the room all but guaranteed that no firefighter could speak honestly with the investigators. To request a private session would have been a red flag to Fire Chief Rusty Thomas that firefighters intended to make unflattering statements about the department and its tactics, he said. "You can't ask a firefighter to put his career on the line like that, not when he has no protections in that fire department," Zack said. "You have to have an atmosphere that is free of intimidation and coercion." The state OSHA investigation is said to be nearing its conclusion, and a report is expected soon. Its findings are widely anticipated in the fire service and the subject of much speculation on Internet blogs and other Web sites. Zack said the state OSHA investigation will have no credibility in the fire service if it doesn't come back with strong condemnation of the fire department's "leadership, tactics and the standards Chief Thomas has applied." He said Thomas should be held responsible for "dereliction of duty and negligence" for the department's outmoded tactics and lax safety enforcement. "It's not right that a guy can be so oblivious to firefighting safety standards and procedures and still be running a major fire department in a major city," Zack said. Mayor Joe Riley defended the chief and called Zack's statement "outrageous and irresponsible." "Chief Thomas is first-rate, and he's a great fire chief and a great leader," Riley said. "He has my full support and I am very proud of him." Fire safety experts have pointed to numerous instances in which Charleston firefighters placed themselves in unnecessary jeopardy during the sofa store fire. Off-duty firefighters scurried about the scene that evening, pulling firehose while wearing shorts and T-shirts. Other firefighters, with open coats, no helmets and dangling suspenders, stood mere feet from the flaming, crumbling facade. Several men wandered about the scene with no air packs while the fire emitted a thick black cloud of dangerous gases from hundreds of pieces of burning furniture. Lax safety enforcement was among several concerns cited by an independent panel of experts hired by the city to examine the fire department and its handling of the sofa store blaze. Among other things, the panel recommended that the department designate a specific safety officer, keep better track of personnel at fire scenes and insist that firefighters wear full protective gear and air masks while battling blazes. Union leaders also hammered the department's tactics after the blaze, prompting Thomas to insist that "our firefighting techniques are not going to change." Thomas has since changed that position and vowed to implement whatever changes are necessary to improve his department. Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 208 comment(s)
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 1:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well mayor riley, are you going to continue to defend "YOUR" fire chief, in light of the new evidence that comes forth daily. Some might call your actions reckless at best. Whats best for the city of charleston, isn't that what you are supposed to be thinking.
The federal government "will" investigate and what they find won't be pretty. Who will you try to blame then, mayor riley.
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>>> "Mayor Joe Riley defended the chief and called Zack's statement "outrageous and irresponsible."
"Chief Thomas is first-rate, and he's a great fire chief and a great leader," Riley said. "He has my full support and I am very proud of him." <<< (see above story)
Posted by JohnQ on September 7, 2007 at 6:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
South Carolinas state agencies are little more than rubber stamps used to validate,excuse and cover up their own incompetence.
OSHA, DHEC and others are in the news because they are not doing their jobs. The professional employees of these agencies want the laws enforced but are hamstrung by the political appointees of these agencies when they try to implement the regulations as they are written.
The politically motivated decisions of the heads of our state agencies must end, they are not working for the people but for their own narrow interests and those of their political masters.
Our state agencies should be investigated for incompetence and failure to carry out and enforce the regulations they have sworn to uphold.
If our leaders truly cared about these men they let down they would insure it never happens again and not worry about covering up what is already obvious.
Those men died because of incompetence.
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 7, 2007 at 8:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Let's not forget that the SC government has re-interpreted some of the national standards for firefighting. Exeptions include the handling of the 2-in/2-out requirement for entering structures and respiratory protection:
http://www.llr.state.sc.us/AboutUs/Media...
F7
Posted by crankyyankee on September 7, 2007 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Porkbreath, have you ever kissed a muslim?
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 8:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, there you have it. State OSHA actually allowed intimidation to be the norm. Wow!!!
The mayor still supports this loser chief. Scary. Time for the mayor and the chiefs to go.
Heck with OSHA. I think you ought to get SLED and the FBI invovled. Make a formal criminal complaint with both of those agencies IFF. Charge--voluntary manslaughter.
I urge you, the citizens of Charleston, to get involved. Dump this mayor and the Chief. You can't tell me that there is only one person in the last 32 years that can do the best job as mayor of Charleston.
Time for a Change in my opinion
Posted by Hostler81 on September 7, 2007 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
These men did die from incompetence and there need to be repercussions. They should have never even gone in that fire, there were no people to save and the fire was fully involved. My husband is a firefighter here and it makes me nauseous to think about him doing the same thing. Thank God he works in a neighboring city. I am glad that the public is not idly sitting by and letting Riley/Thomas have the last say. I am also happy the National FF Union is coming forth, because they just want to protect their fellow men. The good ole boy system needs to be eliminated immediately. If Thomas is forced to resign, guess who will take his place? Another cronie JUST LIKE HIM. Hopefully Riley isn't reeelected and someone more progressive comes in to help.
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 7, 2007 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
One might say that Mayor Riley has grown a little Rusty over the years.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
F7... Great line.
I just emailed Mayor Riley and chastised him for allowing management to monitor the interviews and I asked him to fire this chief thomas and then resign himself
I would recommend that all of you who feel that way, do the same. Then get to the papers and the TV stations and mount a campaign to oust the mayor
Posted by trm2105 on September 7, 2007 at 8:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
FiddlerCrab,
LOL. I was wondering when it would be said.
Posted by BillyTheKid32 on September 7, 2007 at 8:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
From porkbreath:
"It's time to disband this good-old-boys' club and
get South Carolina out of the bottom of every
sh_t list."
This is an easy fix. Never, I mean Never vote for anyone that has held office. We may lose some good ones, but can you name 2?
Posted by charlestonclemsonfan on September 7, 2007 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
well you people are on here saying that the mayor and Chief Thomas made the firefighters do interviews with supervision maybe you forgot to read where one requested a private interview and was given and also the ivvestigator called them at home personnally (firefighters) so they had there chance and didnt say things apparently quit making a mountain out of every article changes will happen when deemed neccessary,make sure you can pay your next tax bill because money is always what holds departments back in every state you have great request but its going to be expensive
Posted by hawneena on September 7, 2007 at 8:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"You can't ask a firefighter to put his career on the line like that, not when he has no protections in that fire department," Zack said. "You have to have an atmosphere that is free of intimidation and coercion."
That is probably one of the most profound statements made concerning this whole stuation.
Posted by idennis on September 7, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Turn up the hearing aid and
raise the bushy eyebrows Joe,
there's a Tsunami heading your way.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 9:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Charlestonclemsonfan...
You obviously have no idea about how to conduct an unbiased investigation. You talk big but I don't see you criticizing your bosss while they sit across the table from you.
Why can't you see that everything being done in this case is designed to protect the mayor and the fire chief. You should be supporting the firefighters who actually risk their lives for people like you.
Stoop supporting these incompetent leaders. They've been in office way to long. Time for a change.
Posted by Fire_Inspector on September 7, 2007 at 9:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, the OSHA investigation is the least of it.
ATF DOES have experience and should have been interviewing people in private.
I know a few of the people in the "outside panel" and I respect their credibility and independence...
Posted by MinoritySouth on September 7, 2007 at 10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
From porkbreath:
"It's time to disband this good-old-boys' club and
get South Carolina out of the bottom of every
sh_t list."
I have been employed by two state agencies for 10 years now working my way through the ranks. One of the agencies is MUSC and the second I don't want to name because I need my job. My experience has been from mid-management on up that the goal that is first and foremost above any other goal is to perpetuate the "good-old-boys" and "girls" club (Women are now members too). This clandestine undercurrent of surrounding themselves with people that have similar political and social backgrounds ensures that control of the State's resources are well maintained to be distributed among members of this club by hiring friends/associates in key positions leaving non-key positions up for grabs. Performing the agency's mission is second to this activity, a silent code of conduct. I hope an end to this practice comes within my life time but rest assured it is well rooted in the fabric of all our State agencies as far as I can tell. Good luck with its demise.
Posted by Chickenliver on September 7, 2007 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Whoever OSHA had for inspecting the firefighters' suits and equipment needs to be called out. Probably some drunk stupid "good ol' boy". OSHA needs to do its job and needs to hire people to do their jobs too.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
CharlestonClemsonfan is 'said' to be Andy, the son of Chief Garvin...Hmmmm...that might explain a bit for his attitude.
The reality is that these men have complained about having to speak in front of FD brass. I also heard there was a lot of hand shaking between OSHA and the brass, so if YOU were one of those FFs wouldn't you be afraid that even if you spoke privately, they would tell the brass which one's spoke ill?
This good ole boys system reaches far and deep...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 10:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
There is also a rumor that the OSHA investigator had never investigated a major fire before in his career...and that the last major investigation he made was a logging truck fatality in Summerville a couple of years ago..I cannot confirm this, but the source was VERY reliable...might be something for the investigative reporters to look in to???
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The local population has been spoon fed and led by the nose for so long, by local politicians, that it becomes harder and harder for people to ferret through the B/S to find the truth, on any matter.
To make the city of charleston fire department a better, safer place you have to be able to do this critical thinking. You need to be able to pull back the curtain and see the real wizard at OZ.
I will give a simple example - How many of you have flown on a commercial airline and landed at the airport in Charleston South Carolina.
(Remember how many of you laughed when Miss South Carolina couldn't answer the simple question about why 20% of Americans couldn't find the USA on a map.)
Posted by vesta on September 7, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
charlestonclemsonfan: Back in June, immediately after the fire, a number of CFD ffs posted their concerns anonymously on these boards. They stated, at that time, that someone from admin was always in on their interviews with OSHA and that they DID feel intimidated. They also felt that if they spoke out they would be punished by either having some type of drudge duty, being shunned, looked over for promotions, etc. One ff even stated that he had incurred someone's wrath on a previous occasion and he was told to go up on a roof to fight a fire while water was being poured onto the roof from a ladder truck. This would weaken the roof and possibly cause the ff to fall through. These ff make precious little money for the job they do and they are just trying to put bread on the table. To be intimidated is not my idea of a good work environment. And to have a chief that condones such behavior is sinister at the least. To have a mayor who both condones and lauds a chief who condones such behavior is outrageous and is the fault of the people of Charleston who elect him.
Understand that the CFD ffs have had to work under this "system" for decades. They did not, immediately after the fire, nor do they now feel that this "system" is going to be changed so that they are able to work in a safe, secure environment (outside of the NORMAL hazards of fire fighting). Would you freely speak out under those conditions? Whoever you are, get down on your knees tonight and thank God these ffs still continue to answer the fire alarms, working under poor leadership, inadequate training and equipment so that you can sit back on Saturdays and cheer on your team!
Posted by oldcap on September 7, 2007 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/firefig...
Is the chief qulaified?
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I repeat.
Call in the FBI and SLED. Make this a criminal investigation.
What is happening now is shameful. Resign Mr. Mayor. Fire the chief.
Posted by vesta on September 7, 2007 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
oldcap: Thanks for the link. In about the same amount of time, RBTjr has managed to do what?: Keep the CFD running with the same substandard conditions and having nine ffs die under his command. Dennis Ruben, on the other hand, has been a tremendous influence on a number of chiefs and departments and ffs and has kept up with the changes in our society (new structures, new chemicals, etc), the study of which makes fire departments a safer environment in which to work.
OK, Rusty, hitch them thar horses to them thar fire waguns and git them thar men to them thar fires. "We will never change".
Posted by Harpo on September 7, 2007 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If a fire fighter requests a private interview, you may
rest assured he will be a marked man. The interviews
should, as a default, be private so as to encourage
candor on behalf of the interviewees. That department
representative has no business in there other than
to intimidate the interviewee and report back to the
chief what is being said and by which fire fighter.
It's blatantly obvious, isn't it? We can plainly see
the damage control and retribution machine in action
here.
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 7, 2007 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
charlestonclemsonfan mentioned that cities and taxpayers should be willing to support their fire departments. Despite not agreeing with other items in the post, I think this is a valid, general point.
In the case of Charleston, however, one might question how taxes are being spent, i.e. a frightfully expensive golf tunnel, an aging federal building, and upgraded marble and medallions for City Hall (with a rededication ceremony less than 10 days before the fire).
http://www.charleston.net/photos/galleri...
Couldn't some of those dollars been spent on firefighters, especially considering the hundreds of homes selling for more than a million and all the tourist growth? And speaking of growth, has the city's spending on public safety even increased relative to its growth and annexation?
Posted by Local on September 7, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I am convinced that the only way the Mayor will remove Chief Thomas and make obvious needed changes is to draw national media attention to this story. Last week's P&C article got me so fired up that I contacted 60 Minutes, Fox, CNN and ABC News and pointed them to the P&C's story archive. I encourage you to do the same! You can contact CNN and ABC News through their websites (you have to do a lot of looking...usually under "Contact Us"). Here are the email addresses for Fox and 60 Minutes for story ideas: 60m@cbsnews.com, foxreport@foxnews.com.
To all the firefighters: we appreciate you and just want you to have the best leadership, working conditions and training possible.
Posted by MinoritySouth on September 7, 2007 at 11:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by oldcap on September 7, 2007 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/firefig......
Is the chief qulaified?
That is amazing. It just goes to show when facts like that go unnoticed by the local media. It really substantiates the fact that there is an organized yet clandestine effort to support the "good ole boy" system and it involves a spectrum of agencies and officials.
Posted by hawneena on September 7, 2007 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
nickie, is it true that many CFF's have not even attended the Fire Academy? If that is true, then what a shame.
No matter how much experience or education a police officer has they all must go through the criminal justice academy. Should this not apply to firemen as well?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 11:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hawneena,
I will check on the exact numbers and get back with you on that. It is my understanding that EVERY FF has to take the beginning course (two weeks, I believe), in order to be a FF. I understand it is basic and that it is supposed to be expanded on "in house" once they are hired into their respective fire departments.
My family member went to the two week school, then had in house training...also has in house training at Ashley River, and I believe those instructors are all SC Fire Academy certified instructors. That is a different local department tho. Like I said, I will check on that and let you know shortly.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Local, you are absolutely correct. National attention needs to be encouraged. I have also contacted several of those large media outlets...and encourage other people to do the same...the more requests they get, they may take them a little more serious.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Not only did my police department require police academy graduation, usually at least 24 weeks, there were annual training programs required for all police officer just to maintain their certifications. Minimum anuual training was 180 hours each and every year.
I worked in MD, near DC so I don't know what the requirements are for SC.
We also require 60 college credits just to be hired and at least a Bachelor's degree for management positions.
Posted by CFDGOODOLDBOY on September 7, 2007 at 11:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you Mayor Riley for finally sticking up for the south. The good old boy system is still alive and fighting in the CFD. 200 YEARS OF TRADITION UNINTERRUPTED BY PROGRESS!! And proud of it! Hang in there Chief Rusty, show them how a man with a high school education takes control, ONLY IN THE SOUTH!I know Chief's daddy is proud to have raised a good old boy like his son.Us good old boy's know books and classes don't put out no fires, only sweat, blood,and smoke make a real firefighter.Rehab... Hell we all know that is for losers. Uniforms, we love the poly stuff, A/C are for wimps. Stand proud men... Good old boys
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 12:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
local...
I have added my voice to the call for the national media to help. Great idea.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
TrinityTim,
The CPD required a Bachelor's Degree for ALL police officers...Amazing the contrast? Promote the education of one agency and discourage it in another...Not that I think ALL FF's need a college degree, but the training is imperative.
CFGoodOldBoy,
I detected sarcasm, I hope..hard to tell in writing with a lack of emotional capacity...You aren't serious are you??
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Let's not forget that there are stories that Gov. Sanford does not like Riley...The Governor angle is VERY accessible.
http://www.scgovernor.com/
Posted by angeleyez0818 on September 7, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow. I will too contact 60 min, Fox, MSNBC, and CNN. If that's what it takes, that is what it takes. Maybe if enough of us do it, we can get their attention once again. I doubt if Riley and Thomas will like the press up their you know what's again..
Nickie: My husband is going through 1152 right now. It is a 6 week course that certifies them to be able to go "IN" to burning buildings. The fire academy is 8 hour days for 7 weeks that gives them more certifications. The 1152 mostly has 3-4 hour night training 2 days a week and on Saturdays or Sundays an 8 hour day of skills training. The night classes are out of the book trainings.
Tim: How would a group in a community go about starting that process? Since it seems that no matter what page is turned, or what investigations are going where, nothing is changing?
I'm tired of standing around and watching these families suffer any more. I'm especially tired that our community isn't able to heal either. While my husband's ultimate goal is to go full time and volunteer which I fully support, I want to make SURE that some a$$hole like Rusty is not his chief!
Posted by angeleyez0818 on September 7, 2007 at 12:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CFDGoodOLBoy: Please tell me you're not serious.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 12:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
VESTA!!! Check your email!!! (Shhhhhhhh)
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Instead of concentrating his efforts on improving fire and police protection for the city of charleston, your mayor riley and friends have spent a lot of time money and effort trying to convince people that everything in this area is part of a greater city of charleston, led by him.
People in Charleston County are paying extra money for a separate police department to patrol the Charleston International Airport located in the City of North Charleston. While in most areas the city police do the job they are getting paid for anyway.
Your little mayor has big ambitions to make all of Charleston County into one big city of charleston, like Jacksonville. Fire and police departments are the least of his worrys.
Posted by CFDGOODOLDBOY on September 7, 2007 at 12:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Of coarse It's for real!! We all know in this dept. that we are safely taken care of by those who will be in charge. Just look who the good old Chief picked for his Assistant! You think this for real, just wait and watch what happens next! Long live the system!
Posted by angeleyez0818 on September 7, 2007 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CFDGoodOldBoy: nice to know that you are a sinister sick person who obviously has no regard for what happened to your 9 brothers and their families. You are disgusting.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 12:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LOL...I'll take that challenge...Let's DO watch and see...and when the dingy starts to sink, let's see which rats jump "ship" and begin to eat the heads of those they were once defending, eh?
By the way...you might want to work a little harder on the spell check feature to be found on computers of the 21st century...Your Good Old Boy IQ is showing under your skirt there pal...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 1:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Anyone with guesses on how that will play out????
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 1:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
cfdgoodoldboy...
Your sarcasm is obvious. Hang in there. Hopefully change is coming.
angeleyez
It takes a criminal complaint to initiate a criminal investigation. I would think that the best place to start would be with the SC and Federal Prosecutor's office. It may be better to have a family member make the initial contact since they have been directly injured. If the commplaint is refused, it may necesitate an attorney for the family filing a criminal and civil action with the court. Again, I'm not positive of SC procedures since I didn't work as a police officer in this state.
If anyone knows any of the famiiies, they might want to mention the way in which this investigation is proceeding and see if there is any interest on their part to pursue this. If they are not interesed, I don't think I would pursue it on my own.
For now, I would think that the primary focus should be on electing new leadership and insisting that the upper management of the CFD be replaced. The election isn't too far in the future. You all need to get started on replacing this mayor pretty soon. Otherwise he may very well be re-elected and nothing will change.
The other major push should be to get a national media outlet in here to shine some light on this. That could be a major benefit, perhaps even better than a criminal investigation.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 1:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You may contact Governor Mark Sanford by sending him a letter to the following address:
Mailing Address:
Governor Mark Sanford
Office of the Governor
P.O. Box 12267
Columbia, SC 29211
Fax: 803-734-5167
You may also contact the Governor's Office at 803-734-2100. Scheduling requests should be made in writing to the above address or fax number.
I am MORE than willing to ask for a forum with the Governor...anyone else on board to go?
Posted by mggoose2000 on September 7, 2007 at 1:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I have been associated with OSHA and MSHA at the state and federal level for the last 35 years. I've held the position of Senior Union Safety Officer, Fire Brigade Commander, Hazmat Security Officer and other postions dealing with on the job safety and health standards. My experience has been that the OSHA and MSHA reps have always been professional people, trying to ensure that safety and health issues at every job level are maintained according to current regulations. Now, everyone wants to stomp Chief Rusty Thomas into oblivion because we've become a society of sue happy zealots. With all the attention to safety in the workplace, there are still accidents resulting in injury and deaths every year. These accidents occur in all job descriptions, from common laborer to corporate executive. In 1998, OSHA revised it's rules and laws governing forklifts. They made it mandatory that everyone operating a motorized lifting device in the workplace has to have proper instruction in the safe operation of these type vehicles. Yet, every year there are still accidents and injuries, some resulting in death. There is no perfect solution; just an ongoing effort to attempt to prevent these accidents from happening. Until we remove the human element, there will be accidents. If the CFD implements new training and firefighting techniques, then they are following protocol. There wouldn't be this clamor for these things to happen if we hadn't had this terrible accident resulting in such a large loss of human life. Folks, crucifying this man won't bring back the dead; it will just ruin another man's life as well as his family. There are more than just this man to blame for this tragedy and hind sight being what it is, we can all stand around and point fingers of blame. That's the easy part; let's stop looking for blame and support with positive energy the implementation of new and better training and policies that will prevent this from every happening again and leave a man alone with his pain. I promise you that if you watched the memorial service and saw this man's face, you'd know that he is suffering every moment over what happened. I've been the leader of a firedepartment (brigade) and I'm telling you, this is a close group of men and women. Your fellow firefighters are a part of your family. You might not like someone, but you'd never put his life in danger on purpose because the next time, it might be you in danger. You look after one another because you are trained that way. That's why we lost 9 and not 1 or 2. These heroes were looking after each other. Let the memories be of great men, great friends and great family men.
Posted by CFDGOODOLDBOY on September 7, 2007 at 1:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
IF YOU DON'T LIKE , TRY AND CHANGE IT!!! WE CAN NOT!!!! THE SYSTEM WILL WIN! RILEY WILL WIN! RUSTY,,WELL,,,MAYBE NOT!!!!!! BUT YOU OR I WILL NEVER CHANGE THE SYSTEM IN THIS STATE. I TRIED FOR 25 YEARS AND MY VOICE WAS TOLD TO BE QUITE WITH IN THE CFD. SO WERE ALOT OF MEN OLDER AND BRAVER THAN I WOULD EVER THINK OF BEING. SICK??? YES I AM!!! I HAVE BEEN FOR OVER 25 YEARS SHARED WITH MY FAMILY WITH IN THE DEPT.WH KNOW THE FRUSTRATION OF KNOWING THERE WAS A BETTER SAFER WAY. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HOW WE FEEL AS A FAMILY OF BROTHERS AT BEING LOOK DOWN OWN BY A MAYOR THAT KEEPS GETTING ELECTED, AND HIS STAFF OF GOOD OLD BOYS, WHICH REACHES HIGH PLACES IN THIS STATE. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HOW THE LOSS OF OUR FRIENDS FEELS, UNLESS YOU ARE ONE OF US.
TOO YOU ALL!!! TAKE ACTION NOW!! LET THE WORLD OUTSIDE KNOW HOW YOU FEEL!!! MAKE IT HAPPEN WE CAN NOT! WE HAVE TRIED AND HAVE ONLY BEEN ABLE TO MAKE A SMALL DINT, NOW 9 OF US ARE GONE BECAUSE THE SYTEM HERE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO HELP!
Posted by Local on September 7, 2007 at 1:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
My earlier post has email addresses for 60 Minutes and Fox. Here are the links for CNN and World News with Charles Gibson (ABC).
http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/top... (this page talks a lot about video but you don't need to have a video to submit a news item)
http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=32713... (select News Story Submission in the drop down box)
Posted by Zarclone on September 7, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
if Riley doesnt support Rusty,then he would be admitting things were wrong,then he admits defeat and the city of charleston will be open to multiple lawsuits, and he will loose the election..as far as having Ricky or this safety officer for the city sit in on the intervews, ricky will run straight to rusty and those men would be "rode" the entire time they are on the job...i know i have seen it done numerous time while i was a member of the dept.. Ricky does not know what he is doing..i know i was in the dept also..we all know Rusty doesnt know what is happening nor does Riley know..look just Remenber the fire at Albright & Wilson..as the city not fined a large sum of money..and what for ??someone refresh my memory please
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mggoose,
No one will ruin Rusty Thomas' life or his family's...He has PLENTY time in for a SECOND retirement...How would THIS ruin his life?
How about the lives of the families of those 9 men? They ARE truly ruined, now aren't they?
With all do respect to your position and title, Sir, those of us who have family and friends in the fire service won't stand idly by and watch more men and women die.
As for the close knit brotherhood, you are correct, they are a close family...but in this situation, there are men inside this department that are now waging "war" against brothers who see the failures and want to change them, so those men are actively working to find out their identities and then turning them over to the "powers that be"...nice family eh?
The majority of the men in this department are fantastic men...they truly work for each other in the brotherhood..it is the "chosen few" of the Rusty brigade that want to control it all...
If you find the fact that civilians are on the bandwagon with those honest men who are pushing for change, then I feel sorry for you and your misunderstanding of the truth of the Charleston "situation".
Again, I respect your title and your certain hard work, but, I can't think of one man that died that night that would be angry with the push from the outside to demand the truth and change the failures.
As for people wanting to sue Rusty, that is their Constitutional right...more power to them...it sends a very strong message to those that follow suit with his tactics and lack of initiative to change the "age old" ways, that there ARE bigger powers, and they will make you accountable for your actions, or inactions.
I saw his face, I heard his words...in person even...not via television...I was even a little impressed with his song and dance in the beginning...then his pluff mudd rolled out of his cheek and he made his famous statements that we have more than sufficiently quoted in many comment sections.
Ignorance is not an accident...
Posted by LeeWalton9 on September 7, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We are fortunate to have the leadership we do--both the Mayor's office and at CFD. You people who have a hidden agenda, who are so cynical that you don't trust anyone or who just know things but act like you do have my pity.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good Old Boy,
Then while you have the ears of civilians who DO care, and ARE intent on seeing change, join the rank and file of THIS brigade...don't criticize us for trying to do what you feel can't be done, while you sit back on your can and complain that we can't fix the broken system.
You want change, then HELP us...I wasn't here 32 years ago...I was 5!!! I moved around, and collectively lived in Charleston and the low country for 10 years off and on...Was I complacent during my time here, YES, I WAS...Did I know what was going on in the CFD? Yep, SOME of it...and as a young teenager, I heard the stories, and had no power alone to push for change, anymore than I have the power to do it alone today...
So rather than succumb to the "forces", stand the HE!! up with us and defend those brothers still inside.
There is too much publicity now for people to stay in the dark...It's time to FORCE the changes..
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LeeWalton,
I have no hidden agenda here other than to ensure that the next time a FF pays the ultimate price, it won't be because of ignorance of Brass positions.
If you can sleep at night knowing what their last words and thoughts were, and must have been, then good luck to you...
There are many more people involved in affecting change inside this department...Don't underestimate the power of the people...Charleston has been status quo for to long, and citizens are VERY sick of it.
Rusty didn't intend for men to die that night, nor did Garvin, but there is a system of accountability in this country...We voted for it...it is protected by our Constitution...without it, we are a dictatorship.
I grew up in a local fire department, I am not an ignorant idiot spouting off at the mouth to gain attention for myself. I KNOW what the Southern politics were then, and continue to be now. I am just one of many people working to force change...It will come..you can either be a part of that change, or have it force fed to you when it happens...either way the CHOICE is yours...I bet those men with they still had THEIR choice.
Posted by angeleyez0818 on September 7, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CFDGOODOLEBOY, I misinterpreted your sarcasm. I apologize for my previous statement. I was wrong. I am sorry you have lived so long through this mess with the CFD. I am NOT one of you, but I belong with you if that makes sense. My husband is a FF in the low country and the only thing we can do is continue to shed light on the shady ways of the goodoleboy system. Please don't fight against us. Fight with us.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
cfdgoodoldboy...
I'm trying to help you. I've contacted all of the national media outlets and I'm hoping that one or more will take me up on investigating this.
mggoose2000...
You are obviously very experienced and your comments are noteworthy. I agree that most of the OSHA people I have worked with are very professional and yes accidents do happen. I know because I have investigated more than a thousand deaths persoanlly.
I'm sure that this chief is bothered by what happened but I have very little sympathy for a man who stood in front of cameras after losing nine of his friends and employees and states that he knows how to fight fires and he's not going to change. That's a paraphrase, not a quote.
Is it normal procedure in OSHA investigations to allow supervisors to monitor interviews of subordinates when there would be fear of reataliation? I certainly hope not because that will certainly minimize the chance that the truth will be told.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 1:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
leewalton9...
your loyalty is misplaced. Our mission is noble and we will not be deterred.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 1:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This might shed some further light on issues within the system here...
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/firefig...
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 7, 2007 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
In the interest of leadership training, there is also the National Incident Management System (NIMS) issue.
Most believe it has good and bad points, but establishing and communicating an Incident Command System is an executive order of both the Office of Homeland Security and Governor Sanford. NIMS compliance can also be tied to the eligibility of federal preparedness funds.
http://www.fema.gov/txt/emergency/nims/f...
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/intro....
http://www.nimsonline.com/nims_faq.htm#1...
If the leadership has been trained on NIMS, it is not apparent in the comments they have made.
In the June 24 P&C article "Local, federal guidelines in conflict" by Ron Menchaca and Doug Pardue, the chief reportedly said that "he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene. "
I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/jun/...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Zarclone,
You are so very right...
Riley might survive the tide much better if he appeared to be concerned more with the citizens and firefighters in the department instead of focusing on Rusty...the egg on Riley's face is largely due to Rusty's comments after the fire and his behaviors since then in the stations.
I suggest people try to talking to REAL firefighters, not the bootlicks peppered in certain stations...that is where the true stories come from.
Posted by angeleyez0818 on September 7, 2007 at 2:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Mmgoose: Intentional or unintentional is not the question anymore. He should have been up to date with his trainings. He should have been aware of what was going on on his scene. He should have been aware of the structure's material. I think that it is not so much that we are trying to crucify anyone or ruin their lives, but their actions in the aftermath are unexcusable.
To paraphrase as Tim did, Rusty did say that nothing will change. He said that within 24 hours of loosing 9 of his men. Now they are trying to save face and keep their positions when over and over throughout all of this they have proved unworthy leaders. They are in it from themselves. For Riley to continue to back Rusty's negligence and ignorance is only proving to this community that he too is in it for himself only. My friend and his wife were both there that night. I had to watch them go through he!! for the days following.. The only thing I think that we are trying to accomplish is further prevention from something like this happening again and to give closure to our community as a whole. By shedding light on the true situation and cleaning house so to speak, Charleston may have a chance at a brighter future within the firefighting world, and these families and our community can get some closure on a situation that justice hasn't served yet.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just last week, Rusty made a comment (relayed to me by a FF), inside a station that no advanced training would be implemented UNLESS the panel recommends it. He stated this in front of the entire station and crew...This was RECENT!
Posted by Firesister on September 7, 2007 at 2:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BEFORE I START TRINITYTIM SHUT THE HELLUP.(put your life onthe line for someone that you dont know then come talk to me)FIRST OF all lets look at this for what it is worth, a tradgic accident that no one could and cannot control. If anyone of you can go out there and put your precious life on the line for someone that you dont know then step up to the plate. Second of all, all anyone does theses days is bitch about s--t that they have absolutly no control over what so ever that has nothing to do with them at all. But were to damn busy trying to see what is going on in everyone else lives that we also in some sort of way try to run it. SO the time will come for elections and if any of you sorry ass complainers out there still want to put in for the job of MAYOR OR FIRS CHEIF then go right ahead and do it, If not then shut the hell up all of you. I lost four really good comrads and two really good firends to that fire and all i want to do is let them RIP and remember the good times that i had with them. Yeah sure i want them back yeah sure i would love to have them here with me taiklgateing this FB season but there not and life is all about living and moveing on from tragidies like this. OK OK so some stuff could have been done different and some stuff could have been changed and it was there we were told about it so what the fact is it wasnt done and we dont know why no one can answer that question NO ONE. It's life you learn from it and if you dont learn from your mistakes that are made then you deserve to have it crash infront of your face and around again. HOPEFULLY this is something that we can all learn from and MOVE ON IN LIFE FROM IT. SO JUST SHUT THE HELL UP ALL OF YOU and let my friends REST IN PEACE . For god sake.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 2:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
They NEVER should have been led into that building...if you are a FF, then YOU should also know that. As for any of the rest of us putting our lives on the line for others, I did that too...not as a FF, but as a member of our military. I served MY time, so that people like YOU have the right to voice right alongside ME. It is EVERYONE'S Constitutional right to make our local governments answer to the people.
Those aren't just SMALL things that went wrong that night...not just one or two things...pages and pages and pages...those men deserve to be honored by their communities and the truth be told so they CAN rest in peace...do you really believe they wouldn't have done the same things had they lived and others died?
I certainly hope you aren't who I think you could be...that truly would be tragic..If so, I will gladly speak to you personally...You'll know who I am...I am sorry you lost your friends...many people knew them, not just you, this is a NATIONAL tragedy...for people that think that firefighters are the only ones allowed to be upset and voice their opinions, you are wrong...I'm not a FF, but family members are, so that makes me an extended member...that makes me YOUR sister, now doesn't it?... since my SIBLING is a local FF...
To ensure that these tragedies never repeat themselves, we, as a community, including FFs, Police Officers, etc. MUST talk about the painful truths of what occurred in order to LEARN from them as you say...Growing pains are inevitable...the truth is utterly painful...but are you willing to pretend that change will come on its own?
For your information TrintyTim is a police officer (placing his life on the line for all of us too)...read his first post...
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 7, 2007 at 2:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
In case anybody is wondering. In this state to meet OSHA for firefighters it is required to take a 80 hour Fundementals of Basic Interior Structural Firefighting which goes over BASIC fire behavior, protective equipment, breathing apparatus, search, rescue, and fire attack. This is (should) be followed by 60 hour NFPA Firefighter I which is a national benchmark. Covered in this class is building construction, ropes and knots, forceable entry, water supply, ventilation, salvage and overhaul, and communications. Firefighter II is a 36 hour course which covers incident management, building collapse and special rescue, hose tools and appliances, hydrant flow, fire detection and alarm systems, fire cause, pre-planning, reports, and coorinationg fire attack. This combination provides a well rounded firefighter. There are many more classes to take after these as well.
Posted by CFDGOODOLDBOY on September 7, 2007 at 2:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We need you all to know the situation is real. With no end in sight as long as the system is in place. We live with it every day, and on the days we are not here our family and friends hear us talk about it. I am tired of opportunity after opportunity being passed by while we take chances with our lives. My hands are tied as they have they have been forever, they know who we are,and our back are not safe with in, you never know who is talking, there is a lot of internal back stabbing going on also.
Keep up the calls and take on the system for us ,WE CAN NOT!
9 OF US ARE 9 TOO MANY FOR THIS TO COME TO LIGHT, BUT PLEASE DO NOT LET US DOWN NOW!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 2:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JIFDeng3,
Thank you for clarifying...Can you elaborate on this a bit? The SCFA course is something like two weeks, correct? and then FF I class and FF II classes can and usually are completed in house, right?
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 7, 2007 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Firesister, I do. I have been a firefighter for 11 years now in a variety of settings, paid and volunteer. I have worked in South Carolina and Oklahoma. I am sorry that these men died, but like everyone, I want to see good come out of it. Unfortunetly, it can be painful to take a look and pick yourself, and your department apart. This was not an accident, I am a firm believer that there is no such thing. (when humans are involved) Every situation has a cause. The question then becomes what went wrong, and how can it be prevented in the future. We all know the answer to number one, the true answer. A long standing policy of tradition has led to the City not advancing with the rest of the fire service. This has developed into a culture of ignorance which has finally lead to the deaths of nine outstanding men. The solution, in my humble opinion, is for Rusty and Riley to go. Change to a weak mayor goverment system and hire a professional fire chief to make sweeping changes in the department.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 3:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CFDGoodOldBoy,
We won't give up, you just have to bring us the information so that we can take it to the proper officials...
This isn't going to go away fast, and I can personally say I won't stop until the system is changed.
Stay safe!
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 7, 2007 at 3:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
nickiegarbeil, There are a couple ways to go about it. There is a seven week program at the fire academy in Columbia that will take a person from nothing to firefighter II. Large departments, tend to have a rookie school where basic firefighter, and other certs are obtained. The fire academy publishes a catalog every six months that has all "Catalog Classes" in the state listed. Individual departments can host "in house" classes as well that are not published. Usually these in house classes are known about to all the local training divisions so the host depatment can get enough students to put the class on. The OSHA (1152) class when held like this is usually a two night a week and all day weekend class for approx. six weeks. Firefighter I and II are the same way but for less weeks.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on September 7, 2007 at 3:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you...
Posted by burton on September 7, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Local, I have submitted my thoughts to the national media. Great idea! This tragic incident captured national attention so they should have no qualms about following up on it. Voters of Charleston, King Riley has bascially said "the hell with you and what you think, I am supporting my lame duck Chief."
Again, if you vote this man back in on November 6, you deserve everything that comes to you for the next 32 years he will be in office! Don't think he is not going to run again if he wins this election. Power is an addiction and King Riley has had 32 years of power addiction and just like a druggie, he wants more of it! Mercy!
Posted by vesta on September 7, 2007 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
zarclone: Your statement (paraphrased) that if Riley doesn't support Thomas, Riley admits defeat and then the city will be open to multiple lawsuits.
Just based on the information the P&C has provided over the past two months and the panel provided within a week of being here, I would say irregardless of what Riley or Thomas do at this point, this city is going to see some really heavy duty multiple lawsuits. IF these cases are not settled out of the courtroom, the citizens of Charleston are going to have a rude awakening listening to the testimony of the Mayor, Council members, and the firefighters, who on the stand are under oath and will NOT be intimidated by superiors' presence, and citizens who were present on the scene of the fire.
Whether these cases are settled out of the courtroom or tried to a verdict, the citizens of Charleston are going to be hit hard with an increase in taxes to cover those settlements/verdicts that will stagger them. The time to have avoided all of this was immediately after the fire, when the Mayor COULD have put Thomas on administrative leave until the investigations were completed. The time to have avoided all of this was immediately after the fire, when it would have been more appropriate for the Mayor to have said, "I do not wish to voice an opinion about either the fire or the fire department or the chief until after a thorough investigation is conducted." Citizens would have accepted this in lieu of such a tragedy and the press would have eventually accepted this in lieu of such a tragedy. To have openly supported the chief immediately after the fire, when that chief stated that if he had to do it over, he would not change a thing (in other words, he would have let nine men die again, Riley began his own political demise. Neither Riley nor the Chief stopped there. They continued to voice that CFD is an ISO #1 rated department (neither truly knowing what that meant). Riley continued to state that the Chief was an "excellent" fire chief. The Chief continued to state, until the panel made their recommendations, that he would continue to fight fires in the manner the department has always fought fires (and that would be aggressively, without proper training, without proper IC, without proper equipment).
These boards and the P&C coverage have made a great number of lawyers' jobs a little easier.
Posted by Harpo on September 7, 2007 at 4:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The criminally negligent errors that occurred at the
SSS fire coupled with the attempted coverups and
intimidation by the mayor and fire chief almost
guarantee that one or more of the top media will
come knocking. I've sent my long EMail with a dozen
or so hyperlinks to all the major guys.
I would say that any family that lost a father or
loved one in that fire that doesn't sue the city
in lieu of the hush money is, in fact, dishonoring
that fire fighter. They fought hard for us and we
should fight hard to ensure their deaths were not
in vain.
Let the legal machine come chomp on Mayor Riley and
Fire Chief Thomas with steel teeth .. and, I hope,
let the tough guys like O'Reilly and 60 minutes
put some flames on their good ol' boy butts in the
meantime.
Posted by truckie1 on September 7, 2007 at 5:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If a family settles out of court in order to get some needed closure they are not dishonoring their FF, nor is the family that decides not to settle and goes after the city in court. What would be dishonorable is not requiring legally binding necessary/needed changes to the system to any settlement whether in court or out so this does not happen again.
Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on September 7, 2007 at 5:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
People might also consider contacting Brian Williams (NBC Nightly News), who served as a volunteer firefighter for several years and might have particular interest in this story.
You can find various contacts for NBC here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10285339/
Here's Brian's bio:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3667173/
Posted by juniemoon1957 on September 7, 2007 at 5:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, dang yaw are all so smart. And that is not sarcastic. It's a real comment. Do anyone of you know anyone at the P&C well enough to get them to make a video and send it to CNN and the rest of the news medias? What about the other news outlets? Local ones....WISTV.COM in Sanford town Columbia? Or WSOCTV in Charlotte, NC?
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 5:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
firesister...
This afternoon you told me to shutup until I had put my life on the line for someone else. Well, I have no ingtention of becoming involved in "ALL CAPS" argument with you. I think your comments say everything all by themselves. You obviously don't want the truth to come out probably because either you or someone close to you is involved up to their neck and you know that when this breaks you're circle the wagons defense will become transparent.
Oh and just so you'll know, I have 30+ years of putting my life on the line and I have the scars to prove it. You show me yours and I'll show you mine. How's that for you sister?
Does anyone know if the investigation results are available to the public and if so, where can I find it. I would like to include the findings to my media contacts.
Posted by truckie1 on September 7, 2007 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
They probably will not be made public until all the investigations are complete and then presented to the city.
Posted by FS24C on September 7, 2007 at 5:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The defenders of the system that was used in the CFD prior to this tragedy are misguided in their attempts to silence critics of the dept. brass. It is truly a dishonor to the men who died to stay silent in the face of the truth. This incident put on display the shortcomings of a command staff that appears never to have looked outside it's own circle for ideas and ways to provide superior service to the city of Charleston. The rank-and-file members of the CFD have not been led. They appear to have been ruled.
A professional attitude starts from the top down. It is more then just good looking uniforms and a Class 1 ISO rating. Those are things that politicians can point to and say "look at what we've done under my watch."
Some people call fire industry standards crap and dismiss the notion that not following these standards affected the outcome of this fire. The chief and his cronies would be in a more defensible position today if they could back up their leadership decisions at this incident and state "We made decisions based on the latest information available today in the fire service." It appears that this incident was handled like a room and contents in a 700' sq. ft. house in the 1960's not a large-area warehose with a heavy-fuel load in the year 2007.
Men died and the system that was in place appears to have failed. That is why there needs to be change. It will either come willingly from inside or will be forced from the ouside.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 6:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=umfO8upIIBo
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 6:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If anyone would like a copy of an email I received from a councilman with regard to a letter I mailed them about these firefighter issues, send me a Private message with your email address and I'll forward it on to you.
His response was very degrading and shows his lack of concern for this issue!
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Someone else you might contact.
Bill Dedman, investigative reporter MSNBC
One of his stories - Part of a series -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19838982/
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
charleytowngirl - Bill Dedman, investigative reporter MSNBC might like to see the councilman's email. Perhaps some on the city of charleston council think they can hide behind the mayors skirts.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
He came to charleston doing a story on the fire and funerals for the 9 firefighter heroes.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 6:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well city of charleston, city council, from what I'm hearing it looks like there's a big freight train heading charleston way. The only question is, are you going to be on board the train, or standing in front of it, like a frightened deer staring into the headlights, when it hits town.
Posted by vesta on September 7, 2007 at 7:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
FS24C: Great comments. We are just hoping that the changes forced from the outside will come before any other of our brave CFD ff heroes die in the line of duty. Morale is low and the trust of the upper level supervisors is missing, which is a frightening element to a fire scene.
charlestonclemsonfan: People would stop by the fire stations in the city and talk to the ffs; however, from my understanding, the ffs have been ordered by Chief Thomas not to talk to anyone about the fire, the conditions at the station, etc. The ones who are telling you everything is "fine" are probably bootlickers or just defending their jobs so they aren't reported as "disgruntled" employees. We have heard on various message boards in the past from the ffs and have gotten a lot of information from them prior to Rusty's "order for silence."
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 7, 2007 at 7:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
charleytowngirl, Check your PM
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 7:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
FIRESISTER: "It's life you learn from it and if you dont learn from your mistakes that are made then you deserve to have it crash infront of your face and around again."
What a profound statement you made.
Don't you think that is EXACTLY what the citizens of Charleston want to happen. Learn from the mistakes (serious mistakes) that were made do it doesn't "crash infront of your face and around again."
You can only learn from a mistake if you first ADMIT that a mistake was made. That has not been done in this situation. It is a huge coverup.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JIFDENG3: You've got mail :)
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta: Excellent comments! So true...if they had just either kept their mouths shut or admitted mistakes instead of trying to deny them, the whole situation, while still, very, very tragic, would have been much better for the future of the Chief and the Mayor.
Posted by carolinapanther on September 7, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think its funny how everybody is getting pleasure out of these forums! All yall do is sit around on your computers all day long bad mouthing our leaders.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 7:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Exorcist_pencocky, Thanks for the suggestion...I am contemplating doing just that!
If anyone else wants to see his degrading response, send me a Private message through the P&C with your email address and I'll forward you a copy.
To think, a CITY COUNCILMAN that sends degrading email to citizens concerned about this tragedy! I'm miffed!
Posted by Harpo on September 7, 2007 at 7:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ABC news wants a single page letter with photocopies of
photos and full personal info for any story submissions
and they want it sent via snail mail. I guess they're
stuck in the 50's too. No problem, I hit all the major
news services.
I don't like ABC anyway ..
Posted by Harpo on September 7, 2007 at 8:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Also be advised: Charleytowngirl doesn't know how to
copy and paste the text of the letter into the PM
box and she wants your personal EMail addresses for
forwarding on the letter she received.
From there on, it isn't that hard to correlate an
EMail address to a name via the net because a lot of
forms exist out there with names, telephone numbers,
addresses, and EMail addresses all on the same page
in XML.
CarolinaPanther: If you think it's funny, you have
our permission to laugh yourself pissy.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
(see news story on wcbd-tv)
>>> The city of charleston mayor riley has stated that the city is considering a lawsuit against OSHA. The mayor claims OSHA made false claims that the city's firefighter uniforms did not meet requirements. <<<
Duh - joe, joe, joe, what part of "100% polyester will melt when introduced to a heat source, can't you understand?"
Ya sued the City of North Charleston to try to stop it from becoming a city, ya sued James Island to try to stop it from becoming a town, now ya going to sue OSHA.
You sure don't mind wasting the "Taxpayers" money, do you joe.
Oh, I understand, its just hard spending it to help the fire department.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Harpo,
As many times as I have posted in support of these firefighters and as many times as you and I have sent private messages, back and forth, I am saddened and shocked that you would imply that I would forward anyone's private email address or letter received to a third party.
Forgive me if I am not as computer saavy as you. No, it did not occur to me to copy and paste the letter, but if that is what you would like for me to do, just PM me and I will do so. If ANYONE would like a copy of the council man's response,, I will be glad to forward it in that manner.
Harpo, I really just wish you had suggested this to me in another private message, rather than accuse me of using someone else's email to forward to a third party.
I am in sincere in my attempt to try to help here. You are way to paranoid.......
Posted by hebthree on September 7, 2007 at 8:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why not just post the e-mail response on here for all of the world to see?
Posted by Harpo on September 7, 2007 at 8:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's really not a stretch to imagine someone from the
mayor's office getting cozy with the forum mates in
order to obtain EMail addresses. Once identities are
known, all kinds of things can be brought to bear
against people via the good ol' boy network .. crooked
cops, people in the tax department, etc.
So, when I found out you were requesting forum mates'
EMail addresses, my first thought was to warn them as
soon as possible without any delay. If I was out of
bounds, you have my profound apologies.
Please copy and paste the contents of the letter into
the PM box and send it along to me. I believe my PM
gave you instructions on how to do that.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 8:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Be glad to, hebthree....here it is. I have deleted MY email address from his reply as it is my private email I use for friends, family, councilmembers, etc.......
He did not include a copy of my original letter, I've sent many over the last few weeks. It may have been in response to a link to a youtube video that has been going around, but I'm not sure. Nice response from an elected official, eh?! By they way, it's from Larry Shirley........
----- Original Message -----
From: GOVlarry@aol.com
To:
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: City of Charleston Firefighters
LISA,
YOU NEED HELP.
REGARDS,
LARRY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by truckie1 on September 7, 2007 at 9 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Carolinapanther, just sit for a minute and contemplate why these particular forums are here in the first place. Still think its for pleasure or funny? If you do that makes you part of the problem.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No, Harpo, your private message did not include the instructions on copy and paste, but the letter is posted above. I did however, send you a second private message asking if you had a better suggestion for me forwarding it to you without needing your private email address. I did not receive a reply from you, only read the suggestion in this forum.
I feel stupid that it did not occur to me to do that in the first place and again, it was NEVER my intent to forward anyone's email address to a third party. Nor would I ever do such a thing.
I'm on the side of the citizens for change! Perhaps I was so flabbergasted that an elected official would respond to a citizens letter in this fashion that I was not thinking clearly. Admittedly, I was VERY PO'd by his reply.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I just read this in my 1st Infantry Division newsletter and thought it was appropriate. Enjoy
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A veteran - whether active duty, retired, National Guard, reserves, a police officer, or fireman - is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
Author Unknown
Posted by rjahopp on September 7, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Strange - a National union (IAFF) asks a Federal Agency that has no jurisdiction or experience investigating municipal fire departments to investigate a State Agency that does have such jurisdiction and experience. Is the IAFF so incompetent themselves that they did not know that the federal OSHA agency had no such authority? If they contacted federal OSHA, why does OSHA deny that the IAFF asked them to intervene in the Charleston probe?
Other than their broad assumptions, on what basis does the IAFF claim that the firemen who were interviewed were coerced or intimidated and could not “honestly” reply to the investigation? Seems these firemen did a good job regarding incident command decisions and polyester uniforms. As a result, Mayor Riley listened and CFD’s chief officers, including Chief Thomas, will undergo training in MD to improve their ability to command firefighting efforts and the firemen uniforms are being updated.
Mayor Riley is correct; Zack's statements on behalf of the IAFF are "outrageous and irresponsible." The IAFF should further be rebuked for questioning the “honesty” and integrity of the CFD firefighter interviewees.
What qualifications does the IAFF have investigating fires much less having the audacity to criticize a State OSHA investigator’s qualification?
The IAFF has its own agenda and firemen welfare is not likely at the top of the list. They apparently do not like Mayors - they are politically oriented and even have a video out that attacks ex-NY Mayor and Presidential candidate Rudy Guilliani who managed the World Trade Center disaster in a time of crisis. Joe Riley seems to be in good company.
The State might investigate the IAFF’s selling practices based on the memories of the Charleton firefighters via Charleston 9 Memorial Coins - either fake gold that is advertised as having the “look and feel of gold” but are actually made out of a “brass alloy” or a bronze version, a bronze key chain, T-Shirts, patches, and lapel pins. The "profits" are supposed to go to various "memorial funds." The key word is “profits.”
Riley will be re-elected and Chief Thomas will remain as the CFD Chief. They are both being very proactive in responding to issues raised by the Sofa Super Store tragedy.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rjahopp..
What flavor of Kool Aid are you drinking tonight?
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
charleytowngirl - You may have misunderstood the councilman's meaning. He may have been telling you he thought your one person email wouldn't be enough to matter. He would need to see hundreds, nay thousands of emails addressed to his email account .................. (Ooops)
Posted by rjahopp on September 7, 2007 at 9:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This is a local issue; death got national attention but mayoral elections, local fire safety practices, uniforms, AC trucks, etc. have little or no national interest. 60 Minutes, CNN, FOX News, etc. will not come knocking or otherwise pick up the baton. The P&O and its reporters will neither be nominated for nor receive a Pulitzer Prize for their Sofa Super Store journalistic efforts.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 9:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rjahopp - Sounds like a bunch of cachu to me.
Whats that I hear in the distance..
Chug.....Chug....Chug...Chug...Chug..Chug..Chug..Chug..Chug
Posted by Wilmot on September 7, 2007 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Carolinapanther and LeeWalton 9. You two make me nauseous. I sit here and wonder what connection you have with the heads of the city. You can not possibly be employees of the city. You two say the word leaders. Obviously you have never answered to totalitarianistic dictators such as Riley or RT. I have. You two are either directly related to one of these two or directly employed by them and have chosen to throw away all dignity. I decided long ago that I would just be a regular employee and keep my dignity and remain nuetral. I did what I was told and did not buck the system. I also at the same time did not kiss butt. Then 9 people died under the command of the people that I knew were wrong in their ways but chose to ignore. Now I am going to do whatever I can to let everyone know what corrupt con artist they are. These "leaders" have you and many others brainwashed. Rusty has hardly even been seen by the ff's of the CFD since the 18th. Before he was all over us. So if he is not guilty of all the things that bloggers and commenters say he is, where is he? If he's such a great leader, why isn't he embracing the positive changes that we need to make instead of saying negative things about the changes to the few people who catch him out of his hole?
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 9:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Great comment, Wilmot!
Exorcist, I and many others that read that response from Councilman Shirley did not take it that way. Many people that I have been in contact with, through email, phone calls and in person visits have written MANY letters to city council already. I am NOT the only email he has received. But nice of you to try to see the good in him.
I'm appalled at his response, as should anyone who has sent letters to council members.
By the way, Exorcist, you write some great comments too. Keep up the good work! :)
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 9:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b5PZYM6_...
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Lead and inspire people. Don't try to manage and manipulate people. Inventories can be managed but people must be led. ~ Ross Perot
Does this sound like your chief and mayor?
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on September 7, 2007 at 9:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
charleytowngirl - By my comment I was trying to take the mick out of him, be sarcastic against him. I understood exactly what he meant, and so did his friends.
Posted by charleytowngirl on September 7, 2007 at 9:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
oh duh....see...I'm upset over this! Forgive me....maybe I need to go back on the Estroven!
Posted by WardLaFrance on September 7, 2007 at 10:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For those with questions regarding whatever training is required- remember that the standards are actually set by the chief, who ultimately accepts the responsibility for his personnel. All the departments in SC that I have worked with require the Interior certification from SCFA- but can waive that if the chief is willing to take the responsibility.
Now another question. If, as according to this news story, Rusty has changed his mind and vowed to implement whatever changes are necessary to improve his department, has anyone seen or heard of the changes he is implementing? Officially, I mean, and other than the proposed uniform change?
Posted by Harpo on September 7, 2007 at 10:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rjahopp's fired up his crystal ball again .. he peers
deep into the future and sees how things will be.
Where's Steve Fossett; is he alive or dead? Did the
plane crash and burn or just crash land? Answer
that tonight before he's found and we'll see how
good your ball really is.
Posted by vesta on September 7, 2007 at 10:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wilmot: Great comments. We can all agree that he is making negative comments to the suggested changes because he has been in this rut of thirty years of ff without considering progress in (1) leadership, (2) training or (3) equipment. I, also feel negative, but in a different manner. Sending the chiefs to the National Fire Academy is a positive step, but four days of training, even there, will not erase 30 years of fighting fires in the "good ol' way". Unfortunately, as many have already posted, we haven't heard the Chief say that any mistakes were made, therefore, why would he take what he learns there and bring it back to the CFD and make changes?? If and when the CFD ffs are given additional, progressive training, will they still not be following the orders given by their chiefs? If the chiefs do not change and adapt to modern techniques, they will once again put our brave CFD heroes in harm's way.
Posted by trinitytim on September 7, 2007 at 10:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Question.
Are these chiefs going to Montgomery County Fire/Rescue for training or are they enrolled in the National Fire Academy courses in Emmittsburg, Maryland?
Posted by jifdeng3 on September 7, 2007 at 10:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
WOW
Posted by truckie1 on September 7, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
They are going to Montgomery Co Maryland