Heat sensors weren't used in fatal fireAt least one thermal camera on hand at Sofa Super Store The Post and Courier
Sunday, July 29, 2007
At least one thermal camera on hand at Sofa Super Store 
Bullard This is what what firefighters can see using a thermal imaging camera. The yellow and red areas indicate extreme heat. The gauge on the right indicates the temperature in degrees Fahrenheit. The devices can help firefighters search for hidden fires behind walls and ceilings and to locate downed firefighters. While Charleston firefighters searched for hidden fire inside the Sofa Super Store last month, heat-sensing cameras that can see through walls and ceilings sat unused in city fire trucks, authorities said. The Charleston Fire Department owns four thermal imaging cameras, and at least one was available at the scene of the June 18 blaze, Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said in an interview with The Post and Courier. He said he doesn't know why the devices weren't used that night. It is unclear whether the cameras would have helped crews pinpoint the fire before it spun out of control and killed nine firefighters. But the devices, which cost $10,000 or more each, have become increasingly popular tools in the fire service for finding elusive blazes, spotting people trapped in burning buildings and other emergency tasks. Thermal imaging cameras use infrared technology and a small video screen to help firefighters and rescue workers "see" through smoke, darkness, fog, dense vegetation and walls to find people and fire sources. The cameras weigh about five pounds each. Charleston keeps a heat-sensing camera on each of its three ladder trucks so the captain on board will have one if needed, Thomas said. A spare thermal camera is on hand should one of the others stop working, he said. "We keep them on the front seat of the ladder trucks, so that when they get off and he (the captain) needs the camera, it's right there," Thomas said. One thermal imager was aboard a ladder truck that arrived at the store early on. Another ladder truck arrived later, but the fire was apparently well under way at that point, city officials said. Thomas said fire crews did not take any cameras into Sofa Super Store that night. "I don't know why," he said. Federal firefighter fatality reports routinely urge fire departments to use thermal imaging cameras to locate hidden fire and super-heated gases that can spontaneously ignite a room's flammable contents and trigger a flashover. The Sofa Super Store building had a steel truss roof, a structure widely reviled in firefighting circles. The design's open-air cavities provide concealed spaces where fire can linger and grow undetected while the truss weakens to the point of collapse. Fire safety experts recommend that firefighters take extra precautions at fires involving steel trusses, such as inspecting concealed spaces before going into a building or using thermal imaging cameras to quickly to determine where the fire is. Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin, one of the department's first commanders on the scene of the Sofa Super Store blaze, has said that he and other firefighters entered the building looking for fire. At the time, they thought the showroom was safe because they saw nothing except "a little smoke in the back ceiling tiles," he said. Garvin said he made the decision to send firefighters inside in order to get a better angle on fighting the fire. Some 16 firefighters were inside the store when the building exploded in fire several minutes later, sending a ball of flame roaring through the showroom. Nine didn't make it out. Paul Grimwood served more than 35 years with fire departments in London and New York and is now an author and consultant on firefighting tactics. He said images and first-hand accounts from the furniture store fire suggest that a thermal imaging camera could have served "a vital role here in determining if the fire had spread into the ceiling void." Grimwood said the commander conducting the first check inside the building should have used a camera to identify or rule out hidden fire before sending crews inside. "This should have been done initially by the (first commander on the scene) even before committing crews. ..." Thermal imaging cameras are commonplace in most large fire departments. But fatality investigations regularly find that firefighters fail, at their peril, to use thermal imagers as part of an initial "size-up" to help locate fires in concealed spaces. In one investigation into a 2003 fire at a Family Dollar store in Memphis, Tenn., that killed two city firefighters, federal investigators said firefighters should have used a thermal camera to locate growing heat hidden in the store's steel truss ceiling. "Ceilings and floors that have become dangerously weakened by fire damage and are threatening to collapse may be spotted with a thermal imaging camera," the report said. The Memphis Fire Department's own internal review of the fire recommended that all of the city's engines be outfitted with thermal imaging cameras because "these devices could have made a difference in the outcome of this fire." The military was among the first to use thermal imaging cameras, beginning in the 1950s. Fire departments began using them in the 1980s, but early models were cumbersome and their image quality was lacking. At a recent firefighters convention in Myrtle Beach, several vendors displayed the latest thermal imaging technology. Some models feature Wi-Fi technology and can beam real-time images from inside a structure to a separate monitor outside. Such advances can give incident commanders, who are supposed to be positioned away from firefighting activities, a firsthand look at what firefighters are seeing inside. The North Charleston Fire Department has Wi-Fi units among the 11 thermal imaging cameras it has purchased, one for each of the city's fire stations. Mount Pleasant firefighters have several units as well. The St. Andrews fire department, which helped battle the Sofa Super Store blaze, has two thermal imagers and is hoping to get more. "It's a phenomenal tool," St. Andrews Fire Chief Mark Schrade said. "It's great for detecting heat and finding individuals." Phillip Russell, who oversees training at the South Carolina Fire Academy in Columbia, said the firefighting school has been training recruits to use thermal imaging cameras since 1999. With the devices becoming standard equipment at fire departments around the state, the academy recently purchased additional cameras and now has 15 for instructors and students to train with in classroom and practical firefighting exercises. Among the lessons students are taught is to use the camera to "locate hot spots before you make entry," Russell said. Some of the academy's newer models can even capture video to a media card that can then be analyzed on a laptop computer. Still, he said the cameras should not supplant training and instincts. "It is just a tool. It's not something that takes the place of firefighting." Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 386 comment(s)
Posted by whokilled9 on July 29, 2007 at 8:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Rusty doesn't know why the thermal imaging cameras weren't used, that is a lie! Ask Rusty what kind of computer he has on his desk. The answer, "Computer? I don't need no computer! We didn't use computers in 1886 and I don't need one now. The only time the cameras are taken off the trucks is before monthly inspection to dust them off. If any captain used an imager before blindly attacking a fire, he would have a one on one with Rusty.
Look at the fire reports, see how many times the imagers have been used in the last five years.
Posted by charleytowngirl on July 29, 2007 at 8:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OK Mr. Garvin.....you were in and out of the building three times before all hell broke loose. YOU tell us why the camera wasn't used? Is today's technology a little too much for you?! Seems like this would have been the perfect opportunity to use the camera, especially if there was "a little smoke in the back ceiling tiles."
And to Chief Thomas, the "I dont' know why" is not a good enough answer!
Perhaps you guys should stop giving interviews until the investigation is done. From where I sit, you just make matters worse by talking with the media. Maybe you should stop talking until the investigation is done. Seems to me like there will be plenty time for questions and answers then. Arghhhhh....this makes me so angry! I'm gonna have to stop reading the paper!
Posted by Harpo on July 29, 2007 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
In all the time that's passed since the fire,
can it be true that the fire chief hasn't
asked this question and gotten an answer?
I actually consider "I don't know" to be a
far worse answer than "we just don't use
them". If Chief Thomas is technology-
challenged as has been implied, then what the
hell is he doing in charge of a 21st century
fire station? That "I don't know" answer
more than a month after this fire is
inexcusable.
Were you gonna wait to ask why until your
very-late-in-the-game fire investigation?
Gotta agree with the above; stop giving
interviews, chief, you're just cooking your
own goose. First, the booster hoses, then
the lack of scene commander availability,
then this issue with non-use of critical
firefighting tools. The revelation that the
fire chief doesn't need a PC to do his very
complicated job is surprising and very
revealing. Computer? Humbug!
Maybe Rusty should retire to bedlam.
Posted by easy on July 29, 2007 at 9:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Dum Dee Dum Dumb
Posted by trm2105 on July 29, 2007 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So the citizens of charleston have paid for equipment that wasn't used that could have prevent the loss of the nine. Way to go, chief.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No, no, no...DON'T stop giving interviews, Chief...Let us hear how absolutely stupid your answers have been and continue to be...that way when the investigation is complete the public will know if it was smoothed over or paid off...Frankly, I would like to hear more out of the Mayor...seems he is sitting back, laying low...Hmmmmm
Let's hope the federal investigators read these interviews as well!
Posted by charleytowngirl on July 29, 2007 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You hit the nail on the head, Harpo. That's precisely the problem. The chief hasn't come into the 21st century yet. And from everything I've read he's way in over his head in his leadership abilities. It's the Peter Principle, he has been promoted to his own level of incompetence.
I am so broken hearted and enraged by the fact that it took this tragedy for all of this to come out publicly. It seems that anyone that doesn't have "chief" attached to his title somewhere has been too nervous to speak of these problems publicly and again, that falls on the shoulders of the "chiefs" of this department. Guess these "cheifs" never heard of the "open door policy" either. Apparently the firefighters that know the standards that have been set for safety nationwide couldn't speak up for fear of retribution from the chiefs. How sad.........
In the very beginning of this, I supported the chief....I have done a complete turnaround from my way of thinking in the early stages. Much of my thoughts on this now have come from statements directly out of the mouths of the Mr. Thomas and Mr. Garvin.
I'll be glad when these firefighters can talk freely with the investigators, if that is ever allowed to happen. In the meantime, guys/gals, be alert and stay safe!
Posted by Neponset on July 29, 2007 at 9:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok, here is my thought. The roof was supported by a truss system and below this there was some sort of ceiling and the raging inferno was between the two. Most building of this sort use a suspended ceiling of a metal grid and removable ceiling tiles of some fiber material. In the absence of the high tech heat sensor, wouldn't it have been prudent for the commander to send in just a few men to push aside some of the ceiling tiles to check for hidden fires in the overhead, before commiting the full crew?
Posted by charleytowngirl on July 29, 2007 at 9:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hopefully the mayor is laying low contemplating how he's gonna get out of this one. If we wants to get re-elected I think he'll need to force the chief into retirement and bring in someone that IS in the 21st century. At the same time, I'm not a Riley supporter anymore either. Seems like there's a lot of protecting their own going on!
Posted by deputy216 on July 29, 2007 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I served in the law enforcement community for over 27 years,and being trained and keeping up with technology is a life saver for you and the people working with you.It is ashame to have had the camera on board and not used it.
Posted by charleytowngirl on July 29, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
rileyj@ci.charleston.sc.us
This is the mayor's email address. I hope many of you have already used it! Even more so, I hope the mayor knows how to read his own email! After all, it is 20th century technology!
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 10:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I guess the chief doesn't have e-mail, not having a computer and all. I guess his Rangers must keep him informed!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Pulling ceiling tiles is for wussy's, Right Chief?
Neponset, yes, this should have been done(except the Chief didn't adopt the safety standards from the Feds), however, using the thermal imaging camera would have made even that step unnecessary-which is on of the reasons why on all the other message boards the FF are spitting nails wishing the rest of the public would see.
When I first started watching these boards, I wasn't sure if Charleston had TIC's...seeing this has just outraged me even more. So, for those wondering, this means there is a warehouse, FULL of fuel ready to ignite, smoke, fire in the back of the building, a KNOWN roof risk(info learned from previous cities mistakes), a building that probably hasn't been walked or pre-planned in years by the FD, and a suspended ceiling...what happened next? A Chief OPENS the fire door in the back of the building that opens DIRECTLY out to the dock where the fire is! Hmmmmmm, but the city and the Chief hold no responsibility????? Don't forget the $10k hook up fees that made it impossible for the owner of this building to put in sprinklers...and then right after the fire the Mayor drops them???? Liability???? Let's not forget that voters...That's why Mayor is keeping quiet, the less he says the less you add together for voting day. Guess he has a good advisor.
Yeah Charleytowngirl, I was standing with the Rusty, too, in the beginning(not Garvin, I read the report of the door early-DUH??), but MAN...comeon-no training, no formal education, and no willingness to make a change in the face of a huge tragedy as this?????? Nah...
Posted by charleytowngirl on July 29, 2007 at 10:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Anyone have the chief's email address?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bickleseagrave,
LOL Ain't the Internet a wonderful thing????? No one is beyond the grasp! Enjoy...
thomasr@ci.charleston.sc.us
Posted by Neponset on July 29, 2007 at 10:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think you folks are right - Little Joe is a survivor and he will force out Rusty to save his own political skin, if things start going south. Who knows the history of Rustys promotion to fire chief.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh wow, that History lesson was several weeks back...Where's Bootlicked...he knows it...Boooooooooootttttlickkkkked...come out come out wherever you are...
Neponset, I will see if I can't find that in the archives...might not keep the extra pages
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How it should be (and how my department operates)Every frontline fire vehicle carries a TIC, Pumpers Pump/Rescues, Quints, and Aerials, there is also one on the on duty senior officers vehicle.
These units are now quite compact and light, they come with a carribeaner, our SOG states it goes in EVERY fire, usually it is attached to the Nozzleman's Turnout coat.
After you do it for a while it becomes second nature.
Get with it Rusty, 4 Cameras in a City with 19 stations, ubelievable!
Posted by Ohhowthemightywillfall on July 29, 2007 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ok folks a lot has been said here about removing the Chief and your right because he's not in the 21st century, but you also have to get a Mayor thats in the 21st century or the process continues to be a canidate from inside that is brain washed with the I'm a Charleston City Firefighter mentality. The relevance here is your going to have to get a canidate who is educated and experienced and who posses vision and fore sight to be prepared for the 22nd century. Its not a shock to the firefighting community about the Thermal Imagers sitting on the trucks or the bottom of the line Turnout gear worn by Charleston city firefighters. If you ever really pay attention to the pictures notice the numerous sets of turnout gear the firefighters are wearing that they purchased for themselves because they know the issued gear is made for a small rural department that rarely sees a fire and has a small budget. Getting back to the Thermal Imagers even if they weren't used some basic Truck Company Functions like looking for fire extention and/or checking the roof for that matter could have made the difference. For those who don't know here's a simple lesson. Engine (Pumper Truck)there functions is too fight the fire. Truck Company( Ladder Truck) there function is to do forcible entry, search&rescue, ventilation if needed and last but not least salvage and overhaul ( covering up contents, and searching for hidden fire) for those that didn't know i hope that helps. Did you notice i didn't say fight the fire? I said all that to say this. Chief Thomas is quoted as saying he doesn't know why the Thermal Imagers were not used; The answer is a couple of things. 1. You don't train to use it. 2. They didn't need it in 1886 so you don't feel you need it now.3. Most of the time your folks assigned to the truck company are off somewhere on a booster line. Folks remember there are so many topics to cover here for what was lacking don't just get caught up on this one. The Nine Firefighters who died deserve more than that. Let the two Chief's continue to speak b/c i've heard it said numerous times " Its better to let one think your a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt". Well we now know just who the fools are. If you want to do something helpful call your council person and the mayor demand the Chiefs resignation. After he's gone demand a nationwide search for a Chief who is educated but experienced.If the mayor won't comply put a new one in office who cares about your safety.By Mayor Riley's statements and standing by a Chief who clearly has no clue is saying your safety isn't his number one concern. God Bless the Nine and there families.
Posted by poorboy on July 29, 2007 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh the plot thickens. You can pass this info to the lawyers of the families. This is great ammo....!
I wondered about this from the get go. I just assumed that City of Chas didn't have them?
WOW! Having them and not using them what's worst?
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The other thing I forgot to mention, even our reserve trucks carry them(TIC's).
We have a policy where if we have a large fire, off duty firefighters are called in to respond in the reserve vehicles, complete with full PPE and all the necessary equipment after that we use mutual aid.
It is ludicrous that off duty guys are working at a fire scene in inadequate clothing with inadequate equipment
Part of preplanning is not only knowing your target hazards but also preplanning what you are going to do in the eventuality of the "big one" where you know you will not have enough resources within your own municipality.
That means if you are counting on mutual aid you should have it preplanned that your IC systems are compatible as well as hose fittings etc.
Posted by vesta on July 29, 2007 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
nickiegarbiel: RIGHT ON! There is a saying attributed to several people: "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove ALL DOUBT." I say, let the Chief keep on talking. The mayor, or his advisor, must know this quote by now, thus the silence. I am still reeling from Riley's set up of an "in house" investigation. Is it possible he wants to "look good" when (and if) he does fire the Chief?? In otherwords, BEFORE expert reports come out, the mayor realizes following his "in house review" that there must be changes (read: what can I do to restore the voting element in my favor???). How can the general public listen to this and not see the folly between statements made right after the fire "we are one of the top 36 fds in the nation, we wouldn't change anything" attitude to "we're going to have an internal investigation." Why do you have to investigate anything that is so near "perfect", Chief and Mayor Riley???
Posted by vesta on July 29, 2007 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So, Chief Thomas blames Garvin for NOT using the TIC. The next article I would like to see the P & C run is "who gave the order to have the windows broken out in the SSS and what effect did that (the quick addition of oxygen) have on the fire inside." Looking at the videos available, Chief Thomas is on the scene, but with the type (or lack) of Incident Command for the CFD, one never knows WHO is in charge, does one?
Posted by cvs on July 29, 2007 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How stupid it is to have the heat sensing camera?
What really is baffling me is to NOT use them ?
Whats the reasoning behind that monumental helluva mistake?
IM sitting<----- here eagerly awaiting this so called investigation .
I for one want to know why,why,why?
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 10:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It is very easy to forget them, this all goes back to basic training
There must be an SOG from the top TELLING the firefighters to take them in, then start doing it. Sure they might get forgotten once in a while but after a bit of discussion, training and useing it becomes second nature
Secondly the SOG must designate the responsibilty to a certain person just as it would be designated who carries in forcible entry tools or the hose line etc
It can be done!
Posted by vesta on July 29, 2007 at 10:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
cvs: Which 'investigation'? The "in house" where all is whitewashed over and Riley comes out smelling like a rose? Or do you refer to the NIOSH and OSHA investigations and subsequent reports? Let's find out from the mayor how much this in house investigation is going to cost the taxpayers in order to improve HIS political popularity prior to November. Everything "at the top" seems to have lost sight of the loss of lives of those poor nine souls. How can some having the responsibility of THE chief at the scene say he doesn't know why the TIC wasn't used?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Bickle,
Sure, but if the guys went to get their gear and show up with it, the Chief would probably call them wussys...So over the years, they probably just got accustomed to showing up from wherever...not ok, but I'm sure that's the story...
I think every action and word that comes out of Rusty's mouth is going to feed into his own demise...While it would benefit the Mayor to ask Rusty to resign, politically speaking, he won't need to...Once the reports are final, I think we will all see the reality of just how deep the stupidity runs...He will have no choice but to go...when the men have no respect for him, he will have to leave.
Posted by cvs on July 29, 2007 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta:im really waiting on the osha investigation.
Sorry to all that i did not clarify which investigation i was preluding to...
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 11:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is another symptom of the basic flawed philosophy of the CFD.
-They have TIC's, but they don't use them.
-They have PPE, but they are apparently optional.
-They have saws and other equip, but they are for pussies.
-They don't have the means of using a high volume masterstream attack,ie: small supply hose, no hard mounted deck guns.
-They don't use or train on a NIMS style(or any other) IC structure.
-They don't train, pre-plan, embrace new technologies, or learn from theirown or others mistakes.
-Rehab? It's for quitters!
-RIT? Add a z and you have a cracker!
Result: 9 of their brothers are gone!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sick huh? And the attorney on the other page says there is no negligence?????? He obviously doesn't work for Motley Rice
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey FF...I just heard something disturbing and wondered if you can vouch for it or not.
I was told that because Charleston doesn't accept Federal money that the OSHA standards don't have to be followed(they apparently have no jurisdiction)???
Is this true?
Posted by Neponset on July 29, 2007 at 12:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am just a lay person with no fire fighting experience, but with some knowledge of commercial building construction and an engineers mind for analyzing things. I think it is great that folks with fire fighting experience have joined this board and are making significant contributions. However I am having a little trouble with some of the acronyms etc used by you. I have figured out some like tic (heat sensing device) and turn out gear (protective apparel), but what is SOG or fire extentions? Keep hammering away at the cause of this disaster and I hope that your efforts will lead to "permenent corrective action which will prevent a repeat of this disaster".
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 12:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Standard Operating Guidelines or Procedures"
Posted by Ohhowthemightywillfall on July 29, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The bottom line here is that poor training, no advanced training, and lack of understanding technological advances have lead to the death of Nine Brothers,Daddy's,Husbands, Son's, Uncle's. Somebody tell me when enough is enough. I do not agree about waiting until the investigation is finished to get the Chief out because changes need to be made and need to be made now! It starts with the Chief being removed before the next Sofa Super Store. " NO THANK YOU,DON'T COME AGAIN, YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK, GOODBYE".
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
From a legal standpoint, I can see why they wait to relieve Rusty until the reports come back, HOWEVER..why is he not on administrative leave? Garvin too, for that matter...he may feel bad and never be the same but he was complicit in this too...I have nothing against these peopel personally, but in other areas of public service the people involved are placed on Admin leave with pay...what's the deal here?
Posted by Ohhowthemightywillfall on July 29, 2007 at 12:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nickie! That is very much false S.C. is an OSHA state and even the City of Charleston is not exempt. This will be proven to them when all the facts are complied and reports and fines issued.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank goodness! I was worried they may have a rock to hide behind on that one. Thanks for the info
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Neponset: Fire extension is simply, the movement of fire through hidden spaces such as, walls, chaseways and in this case between the roof and a false ceiling. I all proability in this fire, the fire was in the ceiling BEHIND the crews. THis is a cardnial rule in firefighting: Never ever let the fire get behind you!!
I'm becoming convinced that the chiefs there learned all they needed to know by watching Backdraft!!
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Something I would personally like to see. When the fines and penalties come down, if the Feds would wave part of the $$ if Charleston would agree to use these funds to bring their Dept up to NFPA 1201 standards. At least some good would come from these penalties.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.llr.state.sc.us/FMARSHAL/form...
One of the OSHA links
TWO in TWO out
A deoartyment with 19 stations should be able to handle that
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 12:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Some more for you neponset
TIC Thermal Imaging Camera
LDH or Hi Vol Large Diameter Hose
RIT Rapid Intervention Team
ICS or IMS Incident Command or Management System
PPE Personal Protective Equipment
PAR Personnel Accountability Report
Accountability, a system to keep track of everyone on scene
SCBA Self Contained Breathing Apparatus
PPV Positive Pressure Ventilation
Command Post, an area where the Incident Commander can get a good view of the involved building, at least two sides. THIS IS WHERE RUSTY AND GARVIN SHOULD HAVE BEEN
Face to Face, This is how command should have been passed on when the more senior officer arrived
Broadcast This is when pertinent information is spoken over the radio for all on scene
This terminology is pretty well standard all over North America
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bickle,
I agree...I was just going on what some of the FF online were saying about a FF lobbyist in Columbia having 2 in 2 out overturned...I can't remember the guys name...I'll look it up and see if I can find it..
What they were saying is that this guy lobbyied and got the 2 in 2 out overturned...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
His name is Bowie...
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
When I mentioned manning reserve trucks, what should happen in a city as large as Charleston, when there is a large fire/occurrance, the reserve units(off DutyFF) and Mutual aid should be called in to backfill the stations. More on duty units should be sent to a call, as they are more familiar with working together
Basically the Mutual Aid guys should not be at the scene but covering the routine stuff.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 12:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nicki,
That guy sounds like a beancounter, and an Idiot!! JMHO :-)
BTW: Ohio is NOT an OSHA state. our union went to Arbritration and WON to keep our 4 man staffing.
Posted by Harpo on July 29, 2007 at 12:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We received the TICs in the submarine force just
before I got out. All submariners received basic
firefighting training as a matter of course and
I remember a demonstration of one that showed
all the heat sources in our engine room with the
lighting turned off. You could see the turbines,
the reduction gears .. all the steam piping just
as clear as a bell, even in the dark. You could
see the COB walking down the passageway. Those
things are wonderful for seeing fires and people
through smoke and all the boats were issued them.
I resent having my money spent for these very
capable devices when they're not being used. I
also resent a fire chief who isn't aggressively
getting some answers to these hard questions on
DAY 2 after the fire.
Chief:
I don't want to hear any more "dunnos" to these
questions .. get up to speed on this thing; it's
been over a month now and you need to find out.
In addition to "why" answers, I want to hear
some "what we're gonna do differently" answers
to these reporter's questions.
And get a laptop and learn how to use it, for
God's sake. They certainly pay you enough.
Posted by burton on July 29, 2007 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow, the plot gets thicker every week! I've said this three times but will say it again: CHIEF, STOP GIVING INTERVIEWS! YOU ARE DIGGING A BIGGER HOLE OF INCOMPETENCE EVERYTIME YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH!
Voters of Charleston, this is your chance to get rid of King Riley and one of his subjects! Do it in memory of the Charleston 9 and their families! Do it for the remaining men and women of the CFD that put their lives on the line everyday! Charleston needs to bring in a more progressive chief and get rid of one of the longest serving mayors in the nation. Their arrogrance and stubborness will be their demise!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Beancounter? LOL cute...
Ohio isn't an OSHA state and your Dept. has all of those fantastic procedures in order????? Ha...imagine that a department with a safety policy...
Burton,
Agreed! But let him talk!!! Keep talking Rusty...I want to make sure no one in this city ever has any doubt when you are told to hit the road. If we stifle him now, he may appear fine to some...the truth needs to be heard, and in case people don't hear it the first dozen times, let him hang himself a few more...
Posted by ssm on July 29, 2007 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.scfiremen.com/staff/jim-bowie...
Nickie,
Check out the legislation page of this site, it has the one on it that you've been asking about (common lang.)
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 1:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Harpo,
My husband said the same thing..he's an ex-nuke off the Billfish. They had them(called NIFTI) on his boat too-one in every compartment, in fact, and when he went to Prototype as an instructor they trained with them there.
Geesh, Rusty, even the Navy uses them...
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 1:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes Rusty keep on making statements, there are plenty here with a firefighting background who will interpret to the lay persons and voters what you are saying.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think the military call this technology FLIR
I think that means Forward Looking Infra Red
I believe a lot of the Police choppers use this technology also
We once tried out a FLIR unit that fit on the brim of the firefighters helmet, but it proved to be to cumbersome in our business
http://www.flir.com/imaging/
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 1:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SSM,
Thanks...looking at it now, but not seeing the 2 in 2 out..
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 1:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And another link for those laypersons that would like to read about Thermal Imaging Cameras in the Fire Service
Keep in mind this is only one brand, to see more just type in Thermal Imaging Camera in your browser
http://www.msanorthamerica.com/catalog/c...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 1:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bickle,
Could be right on FLIR...he IS at work when I asked him...computer geek...LOL He is probably working on some project for NIFTI...I'll ask him again
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 1:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am not disputing NIFTI, just saying I have heard of FLIR being used with the Canadian Armed Forces.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 29, 2007 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We use the Evolution 5200 with the in truck charger and the optional caribeaner to attach it to your PPE
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
HOLY SH!T!!!
I just found a new pic of the fire I hadn't seen before.
Go to: http://www.battalionchief.net/ , click on the pic, then go to the bottom of that page and click on the PDF file. On the second page of that file there is a pic that appears to be from the gas station. There is still civilaians standing around and only 1 engine there so it appears to me to be early on in the event. Look at the heavy smoke already coming up from behind the store. This should have been the first red flag that this fire wasn't going to be just another routine fire. More proof IMO that the chiefs were way out of their league.
This is a great article too, very informative!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bickle,
I looked up NIFTI on the Internet and got some neuroimaging machine,LOL I don't think it would be that, but since he contracts to the AF WHO KNOWS!!! giggle No biggie...if it is a military device, it might not be searchable online?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jim,
That one circulated early on for a brief moment...it was definitely early on...
Not sure if you had been at the scene before, but from what I remember, it is a fairly small space back there, with trees close by. The area it would have started in is very small. It's been years since I was back there, so I am going on memory..
I could be way off here but if the fire is in the back of the building, on the dock...and you send a crew into the back to hit it with fire-seemingly pushing the flames toward the building, wouldn't that make for a common sense analogy that the flames might sneak into the open space between the soffit-putting it inside?
I guess I still am unable to grasp WHY Garvin opened the door? they had an active line back there hitting it with water...meaning it wasn't out...so why open the door? They, from their own accounts, had no charged line inside, so the theory of opening the door and using a two sided attack is bunk...so why open the door? TO scratch your kahunas and watch????? I'm sure the fire was already in the ceiling by then, but why open the door?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bickle,
I got it! NFTI-my typo...Naval Firefighting Thermal Imager
He WAS paying attention to me!! giggle
Posted by oldfric07 on July 29, 2007 at 2:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The report that will come out from the city will be very soft and reccomend some changes, but nothing drastic. NIOSH will also throw out a report that's critical. The lawsuits will bring in experts and open the lid.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 2:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The chief investigating himself seems to me the equivalant of the farmer putting the wolf on the committee to find out why there are chickens missing from the hen house!!!
Posted by gratefulbeholder on July 29, 2007 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh how easy it is for us to stab at the chief. We were not at the fire. I'd suggest we back away from this.
Posted by laddercfd on July 29, 2007 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was at the fire and was commanded by the chief. I'm not backing away. He set us up to fail. We don't use the thermal imagers and I WOULD KNOW THAT BECAUSE IM ON A LADDER. I came from a larger department and if it weren't for my training from there I'd have NO training. Don't tell me to back off. Two of my friends died among the nine firefighters. This chief is terrible.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 3:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well maybe........had the men been able to express safety concerns prior to the fire without fear of reprecussions or the chief been more proactive on safety, those 9 men might be home with their familes having a BBQ today.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 3:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Laddercfd: My condolences to you and all your brothers. Keep up the heat!! Take no prisoners in this. Let the deaths of those brave men create a change for the good!
Posted by lyfe1999 on July 29, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Fire the Chief, and Fire the Mayor, November 6th, This Year. You have the power Charleston. If you really want to make ot happen join the campaign of the guy running against him. It is going to take a grassroots movement. Joe's Deal Estate Group and Special Interests are going to raise $1.5 Million Dollars to get him re- elected, but dollars don't vote. People do.
Posted by vesta on July 29, 2007 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The firefighters’ comments reminded me of an interview with a navy man who was on the Indianapolis. The Indianapolis, if you will recall, was the ship that delivered the two nuclear bombs to be dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Indianapolis was, after they delivered the bombs, torpedoed and sunk. Most of the men survived but went into the water where they were at the mercy of the elements. Their mission was secret, so no one reported them missing for four days. In the meantime, sharks came into their area and began attacking and eating survivors in the water. The survivors would witness their buddies killed one by one. At the end of four days, help came and they were, one by one, pulled out of the water. The naval officer they interviewed said it was the scariest moment of his life. The interviewer asked, “You mean when the ship was sunk, or when the sharks came?” He answered neither one. He said it was waiting your turn at the end of those four days to be rescued and thinking that while you waited, with rescue at hand, you could die at the mercy of the sharks. These firefighters have to wait perhaps up to six months for SIGNIFICANT reports to be released and, even then, there is no promise that changes WILL be made. We HOPE that rescue is at hand for these firefighters, but they could die in the meantime, due to continued negligence and stupidity on the part of "leaders??" at the top level. Have the FF really been threatened if they voice their opinions??
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 3:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The Chief doesn't need us to stab him..he is doing a FANTASTIC job himself...
1) If the Chief doesn't like what the public is saying about him, maybe he needs to explain things better.
2) If the Chief doesn't like the way the public feels about him he can step down, or retire.
3) If the Chief can't take the heat, he should have kept 16 men OUT of the fire instead of risking their lives for sofas. OR better yet, he should have trained them, provided them with better tactics and equipment, and then MADE them use it...then if men die, it is an accident, not negligence.
I'm still waiting to hear why Garvin opened the door???
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta,
I have heard on several of the message boards from several of them stating that if they had requested training in the past they are ridiculed by Rusty in front of their peers, that they are ridiculed at the scenes of fires for requesting certain hoses or equipment, etc...
If they rock the boat too much they just don't advance, or are transferred to stations in undesirable locations. There is also a long history here of blacklisting between departments....that much I know for sure.
Posted by sudz on July 29, 2007 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes the changes are coming to thermal imaging cameras, I am familiar with a new helmet mounted camera from Morning Pride that is extemely lightweight and easy to use.
Posted by vesta on July 29, 2007 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nickie: I had read that also on at least four other sites. This message board alone has 72 hits already and this article just came out today. I wondered if, in the past week, the "Chief" put a gag order on his ffs as far as comments about specific articles the P & C printed, etc. I was appalled to read that the ffs HAD to have a training officer present when they were interviewed by NIOSH and OSHA.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 4:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was on another FF website last evening and its message board was hot with CFF angry that they were told they can't speak to the media yet Rusty and Garvin can...Sounds to me like the internal investigation secured a seat in the Interviews for the Chief to listen in on. It is definitely an interview under duress for certain.
I wonder if these guys can call the investigating organizations on their off time to speak with them alone?
Posted by gratefulbeholder on July 29, 2007 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I suppose I spoke prematurely. I was greatly moved by the chief's eulogy of the brave 9, and my heart went out to him. I imagine he is suffering greatly. I don't know how he sleeps at night. I wouldn't be surprised to hear he commited suicide due to all the guilt and pressure he is under. I always place myself in the shoes of those who are attacked.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 4:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nicki,
Send me an email with that site address. I'm sure big brother or one of his rangers is listening here. Oh that's right, he doesn't have a computer.
Posted by laddercfd on July 29, 2007 at 4:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The chief doesn't believe anything went wrong. Soon you will see some jerk from Firehouse amagazine that some of our buttwipes talked to in Baltimore taking our firefighters to task for speaking out against the chief. One of the bootlicks bragged that this Billy G would take care of people opposed to the chief.
That's how desperate our chief is he's looking for some guy named Billy G to step in. The thing is this Billy G guy was thrown off a department for sexual harassment and now he will comment on us?
I beg anyone reading this, no matter who you are, send the mayor another email asking him to make changes at least in training and incident command.
Posted by oldfric07 on July 29, 2007 at 5:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
laddercfd,
BillyG is a good guy. He may have talked to some of the golden boys but he would never support anything unsafe.
Help is coming. It may take 9 months to a year but help is on the way. The city reveiw will be nothing but later, when the outcry falls in again, the resulting look will reveal deep flaws.
I will write the mayor! And hopefully, if enough people do, he will see the wisdom.
Keep writing and take photographs, record calls and step up and speak out to people. Speak up and show people what's really going on.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Grateful,
Just because the Chief cries, doesn't meant he is crying FOR the men...I'm sure he feels badly, I'm sure he didn't intend for the men to die, but the fact may show that he IS responsible for the breakdown in command at the scene. That makes him liable for compensating the deaths of these men.
It is obvious that through reading his comments and hearing him speak that he does not intend to change voluntarily....what does that say for his sorrow over the men?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 5:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Guys,
I am sure someone has already said this, but DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT...fires, calls, conversations, dates, times, etc...be safe
Posted by engineercfdeast on July 29, 2007 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Let me echo laddercfd. Nothing is going to change until the mayor is convinced we are not as good as our image. Dont take it wrong-we will out firefighter anyone but there's much more than that going on. If we are pointed in a direction we want to know that the person pointing knows his job. Some of our chiefs are social promotions and lack the training of some our younger guys.
After arriving at the fire my captain and I talked about how screwed up it was because we had no orders. There is no staging, no water supply officer-we ran over some of the large diameter hose. Please if you are reading take the time to write to the mayor. We are not supposed to talk or there would easily be 50 of us talking about what really happened. The indecision was awful. I dont know what else to do. I cant sleep and cant get any help from the chiefs on changing things and my captain, a good captian, is just angry at garvin and Rusty.. Who will help us and when Mayor Riley. Shouldnt rusty be on paid leave?.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 6:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EngineerCDFEast,
I asked the same thing...Why isn't Rusty AND Garvin on paid leave?
I can't fathom what you all are going through, but know that people in the public are listening to you and writing letters and using the skills we have to help you all. Unfortunately, I don't live in Charleston County anymore, so I can't vote there, BUT...rest assured, I am forwarding these sites on to all of my friends in Charleston so they know what the truth is.
Take the opportunity within these pages to let off the steam and tell what you know so that those voters, and those of us working through legislative means are prepared to fight them for you.
In times of need, we, as citizens, rely on the rescue efforts of our public safety organizations...now you need us, and speaking for myself, I will do ALL I can to help you through the means available to me. I spread the word whenever I can to whomever will listen. YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS...We want answers and accountability for our friends and loved ones.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 7:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jim,
Sent that link, did you find it?
Bickle,
I hit ya back, did you get it?
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 7:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes I did nicki, thanks, it was one i've already been on, just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing one though.
Check out this site : http://www.firetactics.com/COLLAPSE%20&a... This is from a DC (one of my DC's) who knows how to read a fire and hazards. Great work EAST3!!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 7:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I didn't think I could cry anymore...it was as plain as the nose on their faces, Jim...
Thanks for the link....
Posted by wonderdog on July 29, 2007 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If a police officer fires his weapon or is involved in another use of force, he is placed on administrative leave pending an investigation. Why doesn't the fire department have a similar procedure involving serious incidents?
Every time the Post Courier prints an article, you can bet Motley Rice is cutting it out and putting it in their files. Ironic: their storage facility in another town burned last week, after hours. Fortunately, none of their employees were present. There were no sprinkler systems in that building - just like SSS, the facility was built prior to passage of laws requiring them. Bad timing for Motley Rice, but no one will bring it up.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 8:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
They have all their files backed up in a couple of other locations...they are too big and too bright(AND very wealthy) not to have back ups...
Funny that you mention that..when I saw the article I kind of chuckled a bit...not for their loss, but my overwhelming urge to find a conspiracy overcame me...
I am sure it was just a fire though (no conspiracy).
The sprinklers are interesting as well...I mean, just a week or so ago the valiant mayor cut the fees for tapping in...maybe if the fees didn't exist in the first place two fires could have had very different endings.
Posted by bigpappapump77 on July 29, 2007 at 8:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
A firefighter or a cop can always count on the league of Monday Morning Quarter Backs! Until the Post & Courier and others who comment walk on water, no one should be casting the first stone...unless of course, you are "perfect".
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
casting stones or not...they may not have INTENDED to harm anyone, but their lack of care in protecting and training them contributed, in some part to be determined by investigations, and those actions need to held accountable. Perfection or lack thereof is not what is important...if these men had only been injured, he is still accountable for their injuries if rules are violated...if the men had come home fine, he is STILL accountable for violations of rules...THAT'S his JOB...No one expects him to be PERFECT, just well trained, safety conscious, and ACCOUNTABLE for his actions.
As the general public and taxpayers, we have the right to know AND comment on these issues...as well as hold concern for the men and women (some of whom I am related to)and their safety. People who choose to ignore the issues and pretend they don't effect them are fooling themselves. If you live in this county, YOU are directly affected by these violations and the practices of this Chief and Mayor...Risk is yours, but if you choose to ignore your rights and responsibilities, that's your problem...but there is the idea that "if you don't 'vote', you can't complain" when the results bite you in the a$$.
We post what we feel and see, you don't have to read them. Freedom of speech...
Posted by Re2 on July 29, 2007 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If only those who walked on water were allowed to cast stones we would still be answering to the queen..
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 29, 2007 at 8:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For all of you you guys that are in the "KNOW", Jim Bowie was not the one that petitioned to have the 2 in 2 out rule changed. It was the Fire Chiefs Association.
Most of this state is vollies and they stated that they could not meet the criteria to conform to the 2 in 2 out. Bowie and the Firefighters Assocation were fighting it.
They lost. He is only a lobbyist.
Anyone who has proof that he did, please show us. I know for a fact that he did not do this. Anyone else that says different is mis-informed or is lying.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 8:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Monday morning quarterbacking.........here's something for ya. 9 men are dead. If it weren't for the p&c and others on this forum, the chief and mayor would've convinced John Q Public that these were tradgic, unavoidable deaths and the chief did everything right. Well....read around, check out some of links from people and groups whose buisness it is to actually put out fires. Everyone needs to see just what our job entails and how much risk thse men in Charleston are due to incompetent leadership. I love what I do. I am well trained, well equiped, and have some great supervisors. Yet, if I were working in Charleston right now I don't know if I could stay there working for a bunch of good-ole-boys who obviously don't know the first thing about tactics, training, or progress and would most likely get me killed too!
My hat's off to the men of the CFD. I hope the citizens come to realize just how bad things things are for you (and themselves too)and demand changes.
Posted by FunandGames on July 29, 2007 at 8:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It has been suggested that Rusty and Garvin be placed on admin leave until the investigations are over. If we did that, who would run the department in the meantime?
How would that affect the fact that Ladder 1 has been shut down since 6/18, Daniel Island has no aerial ladder protecting them, Battalion 4 has been shut down on certain days and almost none of the companies who have 4 firefighters assigned are operating with those 4. They are working with only 3, another serious safety compromise.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 8:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why are these apparatus o/s? Staffing?
Another question, when you guys respond off duty to help at fires, are you paid o/t?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 8:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Uberblitzkreig,
That is why I asked for clarification...you can search my other posts...I asked this several times, and also asked if it might be because the volunteer stations don't always have enough men to operate that way...My mention of his name here is because that name was brought on another site and I was asking for clarification.
Posted by wonderdog on July 29, 2007 at 9 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Surely there is some chain of command, just like there is in the police department.
I support the police officers and firemen and believe we owe a debt of gratitude to these men and women. I also believe they deserve the very best leadership available. I like Rusty Thomas, but I think that the families of those who died deserve answers. I hope those in charge learn from their mistakes.
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 29, 2007 at 9:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No problems nickie! The IAFF and several other people have been posting this bad info and I figured it was time to say something.
Jim Bowie fought to have the law stay as it is through out the US, but they lost that fight.
Maybe some more good will come out of this fire and this will change. Sadly the 2 in 1 out rule was not followed at this fire either, as if that would have changed the outcome.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Funandgames,
You are telling us that no one else can lead the department? No other Chiefs are in the line up? You are right that it is a serious safety compromise, but does that mean they sit in their position of authority, that may well have gotten these men killed, during an investigation? They have access to the inside information being told about them, they can control most of what is said about the incident, and this is less risk to the future of FF in Charleston then putting them on Admin. leave?
Asking seriously, no insults meant.
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 29, 2007 at 9:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
>>You are telling us that no one else can lead the department? No other Chiefs are in the line up?<<
They are all fruit from the same poisoned tree. They need someone completely fresh and from the outside with no political issues from around town.
Posted by charleytowngirl on July 29, 2007 at 9:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think Riley will put him on administrative leave sometime in the future if the public demands it or if he thinks it will cost him the election. Riley wants to remain mayor of this city more than anything, I think it will happen sooner than later. Sh** trickles down. It always does...
Posted by vesta on July 29, 2007 at 9:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
fyrmnjim: That is an excellent site. For others, this is a portion of tactical review of the SSS fire from firetactics.com. "Avoid horizontal ventilation as far and as long as possible, particularly where crews are working inside - at this incident several large store-front windows were taken from the exterior by firefighters, after crews were committed inside." Which brings up the question of the windows being broken out. Who ordered that?
http://www.firetactics.com/Charleston_Fl...
Posted by Pluffmuddy on July 29, 2007 at 9:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Funandgames, It appears to me that any out-of-touch 'average' joe (as in NOT Riley) could have NOT offered sound leadership in the same way we're realizing it WASN'T provided in this fire. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that there are quite a number of intelligent, forward-thinking, capable men in the FD right now who are more than up to the task. The status quo/good-ol'-boy system is being exposed day by day as firefighters and others "in the know" are coming forward with their observations. To assume that procedures suitable for the 19th century are still acceptable today is insane, and both Chief and Mayor are obviously out of touch with reality in the 21st.
I've withheld comment until now because I know there's lots of 'laundry' to be aired amongst the firefighters (and you're providing some great insight, by the way), but NickiG, you've been the spur in my boot...If there's anyone who doesn't realize that an elected, administrative official has ultimate responsibility for the actions / inactions of those under their control, then that person has a poor concept of how life works in the good ol' USA. You are so right in pointing out that Responsibility (elected position) equals Accountability, period. Hey, anyone can provide knee-jerk-based 'leadership'... (well, almost...I'm still steaming about those unused TICs) Where's the pro-active LEADERSHIP??? Yeah, those guys who are supposed to instill vision and enthusiasm in the troops??? Yes, Mayor and Chief, I'm thinking specifically about YOU.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sure they are all spawns of the leadership, but are they are irresponsible in the aftermath? At least until new blood can come in...
With that in mind...stay safe...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Uber,
If he DIDN'T lobby to overturn the 2 in 2 out, WHY would someone say he did? Especially the Union if he is trying to help? That doesn't add up...
Just questioning
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pluffmuddy...
Is that spur in your boot a good thing or a bad thing? :-) I operate on the premise that the squeaky wheel gets the oil first....and my family can be affected by this in their own departments...I take it personally..
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 29, 2007 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As I stated before, have any of those people provide proof that he did it. If they can then I will gladly admit I am wrong.
The "info" went out in Shaitbergers email to his minions about the memorial service sucking. He stated in there that Bowie was the cause of this because he was the leader of the SC Volunteer FF's Association.
At the time the 2/2 rule was being passed, Mr. Bowie was only a lobbyist. Bobby Colvin was the director of the SC Firemens Association. That was "another" mistake the IAFF made.
They do not like Jim Bowie and they tagged him with several labels, the 2/2 rule being one of them.
I challenge Perotta or any of the other SC IAFF members, or National IAFF members to provide proof that Bowie did this.
It is easy to say someone did something and hide behind the smokescreen. It is hard to prove it when they know it is a lie.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
That's where I read it now that you mention it..I commented on another page that I felt it was in bad taste for the Union Prez to make comments about being angry that pipe companies were turned away ...timing was my issue with it mostly...
I am not very familiar with the Union, as I am not necessarily a supporter of them in general, so I don't understand all of the inner workings of the who hates whom and why...
Thanks for pointing that out and I will keep researching...
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 29, 2007 at 9:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
>I am not very familiar with the Union, as I am not necessarily a supporter of them in general, so I don't understand all of the inner workings of the who hates whom and why...<
Be glad you are not involved. It takes years off of your life from the tension!
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 9:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As opposed to general service in the FD???? ;-)
My A$$ is still writhing in pain from the lashing I got on my Union opinions...I'm not touching that one with a ten foot pole again!
Don't bite me guys!! Truce...
Posted by Pluffmuddy on July 29, 2007 at 9:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
NickieG, it's a very good thing...It's given me just the right amount of desire to see that things are done the way they should be done...whatever it takes. (With elections on the way, I'd better get busy!) From Leadership all the way to the one who's doing his/her best to carry out their jobs in a professional manner, there's just no excuse in this day and age, not to be up-to-date with cutting-age procedures. That's not to say that everything on the horizon is necessarily good, but it certainly gives us plenty to work with. The leadership in this FD has chosen to ignore highly beneficial progress in the fire-fighting industry, and there's just no place for that kind of mindset in this town. If you're curious, I'm a local. I've seen much more of Little Joe and his troupe than I'd have wished...his skewed legacy continues... arrrrghhhh....
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Whew....I wasn't sure if I had gotten my a$$ handed to me again or if I was in the right this time! lol
My goal is to stir as much crap as I can so people will be forced to learn the real issues and take notice...I have family in the fire service locally, and if something happened like this to my sister, or cousin...Mmmmm...it woud be a BAD day in the low country...My children and I knew Mulkey from Summerville HS...it's personal for me...not as close as some, but close enough to push me beyond livid...I am not a local, I am from Ohio originally, but I have lived here collectively for about 9 or 10 years(leaving for Navy duty briefly).
I saw the good ole boy system from the time I was young when I lived with my Uncle(NCh. FF)...it isn't any different there...it's who you know and who you.....
It is time we stand up and demand that this kind of attitude goes and is replaced by real training, professionalism, and upgrades that can save lives, not just give the FF a change to get rocks off ATTACKING a fire...(no offense guys).
I was very young and hardly aware of my surroundings in politics back then, but do you remember the Bourne days in N. Chas? Does this seem remotely like that to you? Might just be my memory...
Thanks for the compliment...welcome to the band
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 10:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nicki, This was all i could find right now. I'll start digging in the SC legislature sites later. http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blog... http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blog...
You all can say what you want about unions, but our local here in Dayton provides a very good check and balance system with city and state officals whose first concern is $$ over safety. SC is very anti labor and that makes locals like CFD 51 very weak. If they had the legal backing, they might have been able to demand the city adopt some of the new standards and training(through arbritration) that could have prevented this tragedy.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jim....
Thanks for the site...I'll check them out...
Nooooooooo....not Union bashing, I swear...but I do agree that if they had legal backing in this state they might have been able to prevent some of this from happening...
DISCLAIMER...I AM NOT UNION BASHING(anymore)... ;-)Union members, please do not email me hate letters or post them here...
Posted by Pluffmuddy on July 29, 2007 at 10:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, NickiG, you're right in realizing that the best defense against the Good ol' Boy system is knowledge. Typically, the system works best when there are plenty of unthinking, greedy followers who think they've found a Sugar Daddy to keep them. After years of living under the megalomania of Bourne, Riley, and Summey, it's no surprise to find kinks in their systems... Despite the fact that there indeed are many fine leaders in the ranks, it's tough to make changes when leadership is mostly about image. I think it's interesting to note that political party is not necessarily an indicator. Their idea of progress is a larger budget, NOT necessarily a better way of life for the citizens. The spending on IMAGE around here is unreal...well, Little Joe, how's the SSS catastrophe look in the background of your portrait?
(Why is it that I just can't help taking shots at the Mayor? I do highly respect authority, but maybe the tarnish is making it hard to see the shimmer of the crown...)
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jim,
Well, that left me at the same spot I was before...nowhere...lol I thought working with a room full of women was bad...yikes
Thanks for the site...I'll keep looking... :-)
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 10:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pluffmuddy,
Thanks again...Let's keep working at this for sure...
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 10:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Some other things our union does:
-Protects members from unjust harrassment and terminations.
-Helps set standards for hiring and promotions and makes the city adhere to those standards(it doesn't matter if we can play ball or not).
-Negotiates better pay and benefits(it appears our pay is nearly double that of CFD)for its members.
-Takes action both legally and politcally with issues concering us and our safety.
I'm not a big fan of Schaitberger, I think his political ambitions cause him to grandstand a bit, but the mission statement of the IAFF is sound.
I don't know much about his Bowie guy. But, personally, the fact that he's a Rudy ranger(sorry) tells me he's an idiot.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 29, 2007 at 10:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nicki,
Working in room full of firemen is definately worse than a room full of women. Our maturity level is usually around that of a 6 year old. :-P
Posted by oldfric07 on July 29, 2007 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One would expect Grant to take up for Jim Bowie. After all he runs the ad netwrok for Bowies state support of Rudy G.
However, in the context of this discussion, Jim Bowie is the same as when he had a brief career on the Charleston Fire Department; he's a political hack. His name brings snorts from the Fire Chiefs in this area and the midlands.
There will be some new developments this week. Keep reading and sending thos eemails to the mayor.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jim,
BEFORE anyone screams, please hear me out completely...I AM NOT A RUSTY SUPPORTER!!!I promised myself I wouldn't bash the Union(again)...and I won't...however, my problem with them is just what you mentioned...it has become a stage for political games and depending on the local Union office, the men are the least of their concern (generally speaking).What happened with Schaitberger and the memorial was pretty bad.They do great charity work, they work hard, in some jurisdictions to get better working conditions for the men, and they have made tremendous progress in legislation for safer protocols, BUT,they are still developing into politicians nonetheless.If the men are the most important thing to the Union, then make it stay that way.I despise Rudy...and even moreso since 9/11. Grandstanding on the backs of the dead is NOT cutting it with me;considering HE dropped the ball with their communication equipment, uniforms, training, etc.Kill them, then pose for them mentality.Not my President.Here my issue is that in SC the Union is seemingly too weak to help the actual guys in the trenches, so why pay the dues? Does it get them closer to bringing in a stronger Union?Not until we get collective bargaining,not until we have binding arbitration.So what do the dues in SC benefit? My eye is on the guys busting their a$$e$ and paying their hard earned wages to a service that doesn't have the capability to provide for them.Another issue I have is that when you create a WE v THEY situation by excluding some people from the Union, you have already declared war at the negotiating table.Dayton is the exception, Jim,not the rule.I wish, but it isn't.If you create a Union of all the members of the FD you collectively stand together against the cities that employ you and demand higher funding, pay and equipment-TOGETHER.To me, it seems common sense that this might end the creation of the Riley/Thomas dictatorship.Am I making sense at all? I guess I don't understand the 'natural' rift with brass and FF...they are all on the same team fighting the "demon"(fire),so why are they seemingly always at odds? To me the common ground is the Union-the way it is set up,conducted, the way it is flashed as a threat. The Union/ASSOCIATION should be just that-a UNION of the FF of all ranks and file to work together to gain the needed resources they deserve, not division of ranks.(con't)
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
(con't)
I am repeating a comment made by a Union CFF asking where Yow was now.I was asking myself that same question in the last two weeks.They made an initial statement,and then silence.Maybe they have to, I don't know,but the appearance just goes to prove the weakness in SC, and also the lack of benefit to these poor men left holding the rest of the bag.If the Union is what FFs want, then how can we make it MORE effective? Can the general public do something to help them implement the Union in a stronger standing? As it is,as much as I disagree with the idea of Unions, these men have nothing and no one to protect them right now.Men have been killed,and no one can do a damned thing about it but sit and wait for the next tragedy.WHERE the HELL is their UNION? They are being subjected to taunting, to threats, to unsafe working conditions, now that they are 9, maybe more, men down.WHO is here to help them NOW???, not when a politician is willing to put the campaign on hold and pay attention...Sorry...these politicians, including Schaitberger and Bowie, need to shut the hell up about stupid stuff and come to the aid of these men left hanging out to dry;if that means Union reps drive into the stations and stand there waiting for the next fire,then go to the scene and encourage these men that someone is watching on their behalf, then do it-that's the Unions job, to PROTECT them while they are alive, not wait for them to be dead and worry about details later...
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OldFric...that's not fair...you taunt us with the carrot then hide it? ;-)
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 29, 2007 at 11:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
PS..and the Union really made me mad when they fight to maintain the job for a chick that came to work and slept for three hours on her shift at the factory(obviously different Union)....Slackers get the same protection as the hard working folks
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 30, 2007 at 5:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You got me Fric! You know who I am!
uh no, try again!
Posted by Neponset on July 30, 2007 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This board is about the Charleston 9 and what changes need to be made to prevent a repeat of this tragedy and is not a forum for union activist - leave union issues at the door when you enter this or similar forums.
Posted by fyrmnjim on July 30, 2007 at 8:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a union activist. Your right this is no place for bickering about this, but the weakness of local 51 and Rustys apparent disdain for them is yet another symptom of the illness in the CFD that led to those mens deaths. THere is no system of checks and balance in your city. The chief is free to reign as he sees fit. Promote, hire, and fire at his discretion irregardless of qualifications or cause. Ignore federal mandates and standards. All with the blessing of the mayor. My point is, had these men had a union with some teeth, they could have demanded changes in procedures which may have made this entire forum unnecessary because these deaths may have been prevented.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 30, 2007 at 8:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Neoponset,
Agreed to both you and Jim...I am also not a Union activist or anti-Union...but I agree with Jim that had the Union been or allowed to have been stronger, these men might have been protected from the mistakes that were made at that fire. This wasn't the first fire that these procedure were used, and since the fire those same procedures are STILL being used-nothing about that fire and those deaths.
That is my point with my comments-not to encourage, or discourage Union membership. The entire point of my post was that IF the Union can't protect these men, WHO will? What can we, as citizens do to protect them in the absence of an organization that currently can. If my post came off as anything other than that, I apologize. Same to you Jim.
Posted by charlestonnight on July 30, 2007 at 9:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Why are Ladder 1 and Battalion 4 shut down ? and other companies are working with only 3 ?
Posted by oldfric07 on July 30, 2007 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Uber: No more tries. Your "Buddy" exposed you.
Cheers.
Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on July 30, 2007 at 9:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Damn him! I try to keep my secret and my "buddy" outs me!
Oh no! :)
Posted by Neponset on July 30, 2007 at 10:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I have read the book "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair, which outlined the terrible working conditions in the meat packing industry of the late 19th century, but have also worked in a roofing mill which had a union and most of the workers were members. My experience in that mill was not positive. All the union members carried their little union book and were a little too quick to file a grievence or to make make things difficult for their nonunion work mates - too much negativity and not enough productivity. I agree that "good workers" need some protection from bad employers - but there needs to be balance.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on July 30, 2007 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
In this situation, these men just need protection...What can WE, as citizens, do to help them UNTIL the investigation wields answers, and actions are taken against those liable? There are CFF on this site hiding behind screen names, fearful for their livelihood. Others trying to oust them to shut them up. They can't speak in the investigations for fear of reprisals, and the issues go unchanged.
What can WE do to help NOW?
Posted by vesta on July 30, 2007 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ONE of the major problems with CFD is that we have a mayor and city council hiring a fire chief. Obviously, from the mayor's comments immediately after this tragedy, Riley knows NOTHING about the fire department, IC, equipment, training, etc. He has a