Posted by Harpo on August 24, 2007 at 1:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

More damning testimony that underscores the mayor's
and chief's stubborn unwillingness to make changes
for the safety of the people who work under them.
More denial, more damage control. More attempts
to deflect, to beguile. More spin.

I mean, POLYESTER uniforms which melt when heated?
The two of you even ignored THAT ONE?

You gotta be kidding me. What do you two gentlemen
think the legal teams for those nine families is
going to be able to do with these latest
revelations?

Why did it take nine souls to open your eyes and
ears to good advice?

Posted by cfdiaffman on August 24, 2007 at 1:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you Captain Yow. Thank god you keep good records. Thank god someone is listening, finally. Keep up the good work Capt. Yow and everyone else thats helping to get the truth out.

Posted by Neponset on August 24, 2007 at 5:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The problem is we have a strong mayor and a council which was essentially hand picked by Joe. We need to take the election of council members more seriously and get more folks on board, who do not have a rubber stamp in their hand.

Posted by mac0cm4 on August 24, 2007 at 6:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Gee, a union wants more personnel (which ends up with them gaining more members) - that's original. (rolls eyes) Most area FD's don't have 4 people per apparatus. Aside from that, the rest of their recommendations aren't bad.

Posted by Neponset on August 24, 2007 at 6:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

mac-cm4
Do you want the fire dept to show up at your fire with a poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly led skeleton crew?

Posted by meemz on August 24, 2007 at 6:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If this doesn't sum things up, I don't know what will! I am absolutely astounded!! Forget the voluntary resignations of the fire chief and mayor, sounds to me like they should be charged with 9 counts of man slaughter. If they're "not guilty," they can have their day in court to attempt to prove it.

>>Among other changes called for in the 2002 proposal were for the department to get rid of its potentially dangerous polyester uniforms and to fully adopt national standards designed to protect firefighters.

>>Roger Yow, president of the local firefighters union, which represents about half of the city's firefighters, was a captain with the Charleston Fire Department in 2002. He attended the meeting with Thomas and recalled that Thomas promised to look into the group's concerns.

"This was in 2002, and it was ignored by all," Yow said. "Chief Thomas had his chance to change before nine good men died, and he refused to."

>>Riley said the city did not ignore the proposal, and the city is taking steps on its own to improve safety.

>>Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf.

According to the above referenced text alleging what Riley said, he's more than admitted his guilt without meaning to. I would love to see Bill O'Reilly get ahold of this story and pursue the cheif and the mayor as he's known to do when he's passionate about a topic. Like him or not, he can be most effective.

Posted by lillady on August 24, 2007 at 6:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OK. I am sorry but there is NO way I can understand putting these men and women in uniforms on a daily basis that will burn and actually explode at high temperatures. Good gosh are they STUPID???? Anyone who is a mother knows that children's pajamas have long been made to be firesafe. Why the heck (and yes I want to use another word but won't) are we putting the men and women who might save our children in uniforms that could explode? NOW I am ready to start slapping at the higher ups on this issue.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 7:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Mac4,

You are right, most FDs don't have 4 men on their trucks, but they SHOULD!

The Mayor's comment that the FD should not be politically pressured is garbage! He didn't want the council members coming to conclusions on their own, that might contradict with HIS wishes.

NOW will people believe what we have been saying since this thing broke????

WAY TO GO YOW!!!

Posted by bigbrotheriswatching on August 24, 2007 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

for mayor riley to continually block members from city council to actively participate in the operation and functions of the executive body of our city government is damning, to say the least. the control he exhibits in running this city, nearly unaccountable to anyone, shows how he has insulated himself over a 32 year period as mayor. not one city council member was named to the review panel, and now gallant wants to speak up? he ignored the reccomendations in 2002 because his PRIORIY wasn't the fire department and what their BASIC needs were. it's sad it took 9 brave men to die for him to now consider implementing these suggestions. I am just trying to imagine what tragedy has to occur to our police department, or our schools before he decides to invest some real money in those areas and not 20 million in the dock street theater, or 11.5 in the rivers building....

Good work Yow

Posted by gencon1 on August 24, 2007 at 8:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't want to get into the blame issue but as a general rule, you need professionals to run departments. City Council having more say in the affairs of the CFD would be akin to congress running the war. Not a good idea. let the professionals in the field run the show and hold them accountable.

Posted by bigbrotheriswatching on August 24, 2007 at 8:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

gencon,
comparing war and monitering the basic services that are provided by the city is a big leap...

Posted by oldcap on August 24, 2007 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This report and the 1996 report - ouch. Make your move Mr. Mayor-next week will be worse.

Firefighter Hourly has the coverage
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/firefig...

check it out.

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 24, 2007 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

gencon1, Your so called "professionals" ran this show and now 9 are dead!!! What part of gross incompetence do you not understand??

You people keep reelecting him. He keeps your taxes low and you can get that warm fuzzy feeling thinking your safe while your head is planted firmly in the sand.

As for letting the professionals run the war.......I see Dubya has things in Iraq well in hand.

Go back to your coffee!

Posted by blahblah123 on August 24, 2007 at 8:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

There are unions in South Carolina, that is kind of ironic.

Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 24, 2007 at 9:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

>>> Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf. "I think it's important that the police and fire departments and other departments aren't subject to political pressures," he said. <<<

To the incompetent, bungling, negligent mayor of charleston - resign today - for the sake of the city of charleston. You will look really stupid in court defending "YOUR" actions, with the international press there at hand.

Posted by lyfe1999 on August 24, 2007 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It's an election year folks. Unseating Riley is the only choice we have. Gregorie is the only competitor. Check out his website. Also, like it was said earlier we have to take city council races serious and elect people who are going to challenge the Mayor no matter who he or she is. Get involved people. King Riley has got to go.

Posted by Early on August 24, 2007 at 9:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The only recommendation the mayor did was to increase pay and vacation time? Didn’t help those who paid the ultimate price or their families does it when the other recommendations might have saved their lives.

Posted by Greg on August 24, 2007 at 9:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow...

Posted by bootlicked on August 24, 2007 at 9:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Early, he only increased the pay after the union sued. I think the vacation issue was that he let them split it up instead of making them use it all at once. I remember getting a month off for vacation(this includes the days off in between shifts) and actually only using a few days then just working my part time job for the rest of it. As time passes the public and the idiots baffled by Rusty and the Mayor's bull will also be appauled by thier actions, or failure to act.

Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 24, 2007 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

>>> Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf.<<<

Citizens of the city of charleston do have more than the choice of one person or the other ruling over them. Maybe the problem is the city's strong-mayor form of government. You could change the dictatorship of riley or someone else into a 'full' council democracy.

From the South Carolina, Code of Laws -> If a the citizens of a city wanted to change their form of government there are two options: an Election Commission-certified petition to that effect signed by '15' percent of the town’s registered voters; or the municipal governing body ( the city council ) calling for such an election by 'ordinance'.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

CITIZENS OF CHARLESTON: Below is a story that broke on a web blog...You need to pay attention closely..THIS is the logic behind your Chief!

"City Goes To Larger Attack Lines But Keeps Same Size Supply Lines:
The stupidity of the decision is profound. Instead of ordering larger supply lines the City of Charleston is apparently replacing their 1 1/5" attack lines with 1 3/4 ". Yet they are still retaining the same supply lines!

Now further demands will be placed on the same supply line that had a direct impact on the departments inability to provide enough water during the Sofa Super Store fire. The logical sequence would have been to order larger supply lines first! Then add the 1 3/4" line.

Now, at a fire, firefighters will pull one or two preconnects that flow more water. However if you can't SUPPLY more water the new lines are no better than the old. This boggles the mind."(Retrieved from www.firefighterhourly.com)

This man has been speaking out about the inadequacies of this Chief and the practices for a long time...No one listened...Time to perk up our ears folks, the crap is just beginning to roll!

Posted by gencon1 on August 24, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Do you want a city council, none of which could properly extinguish a campfire telling you how to run a fire department. Do you want Kwadjo Campbell telling you what size hose to pull? What part of hold the professionals accountable did you not read?

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 10:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

MAYOR RILEY: (OR WHOEVER READS THE MBs for HIM):From the P&C: "Riley said the city DID NOT IGNORE the proposal (2002), and the city is taking steps on its own to improve safety (2007)."

(1) Did not ignore: This means you WERE FULLY AWARE of the dangers to the city's ffs.

(2) the city is taking steps on its own--FIVE YEARS LATER AFTER YOU KNEW, and ONLY because of the irate citizens and remaining ffs who weren't killed in that fire have been screaming for changes.

Again, from the article, "I think it is important that the police and fire departments and other departments aren't subject to POLITICAL PRESSURES." The resounding answer to that statement: R-E-S-I-G-N because YOU are the political pressure that has created this awful incident.

Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 24, 2007 at 10:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Another benefit of change is that you can reduce the exorbitant salary riley takes from the city of charleston. If the manager doesn't work out get another one.

Council form of government – The biggest difference in this versus what exists in the city of charleston right now is that all legislative and administrative powers of the city of charleston is vested in the city council. Each member of council, including the 'mayor', has only one vote.

Council-Manager form of government – Under this form of government, all legislative powers of the municipality and the determination of all matters of policy shall be vested in the city of charleston, city council, each member, including the mayor, to have only one vote. And instead of the mayor being responsible for the day-to-day administration of the town, a town manager is hired as the chief executive officer and head of the administrative branch of the city of charleston. He will be responsible to the city of charleston, city council, for the proper administration of all affairs of the city of charleston.

Posted by sheeple on August 24, 2007 at 11:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"he only increased the pay after the union sued. "

Maybe the union should have sued for Kevlar uniforms...seems there's more than enough blame to go around.

Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 24, 2007 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

gencon1 - >>> Do you want a city council, none of which could properly extinguish a campfire telling you how to run a fire department. Do you want Kwadjo Campbell telling you what size hose to pull? What part of hold the professionals accountable did you not read? <<<

Citizens of the city of charleston do have a responsibility to look at who they vote for. After all, its easier to vote out a council member than a dictator protected by the press. Right?
Look at what a one man dictatorship has gotten the city of charleston.

"Another day older and deeper in debt." - Tennessee Ernie Ford (I think)

Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 24, 2007 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Under a strong-mayor form of government, as in the city of charleston, the mayors' powers are, by state law ->

To appoint and, when he deems it necessary for the good of the municipality, suspend or remove all municipal employees and appointive administrative officers; except as otherwise provided by law or personnel rules adopted pursuant to Chapters 1 through 17. He may authorize any administrative officer who is subject to his direction and supervision to exercise these powers with respect to subordinates in that officer's department, office or agency;

"To direct and 'supervise' the administration of all departments, offices and agencies of the municipality" except as otherwise provided by Chapters 1 through 17;

To preside at meetings of the council and vote as other councilmen;

To act to insure that all laws, provisions of Chapters 1 through 17 and ordinances of the council, subject to enforcement by him or by officers subject to his direction and supervision, are faithfully executed;

To prepare and submit the annual budget and capital program to the council;

To submit to the council and make available to the public a complete report on the finances and administrative activities of the municipality as of the end of each fiscal year;

To make such other reports as the council may require concerning the operations of municipal departments, offices and agencies subject to his direction and supervision.

Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 24, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

>>> "To direct and 'supervise' the administration of all departments, offices and agencies of the municipality" <<<

mayor riley -> Are the citizens of the city of charleston to understand you aren't able to fulfill your duties?

"RESIGN", for the good of the city of charleston.

Posted by Burntower on August 24, 2007 at 11:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

OK I have finally broke down and got myself involved in this bickering. First off, I work for the CFD and I know its not all of you but I’m sick of hearing about how poorly trained and uneducated we are in this department; show a little respect I don’t need to be praised for what I do, because most of you will never fully understand what it is I do, but for Christ’s sake show a little compassion and back off! I know there is always better out there and we all want the best, and it seems that MOST, not all are quick to point out flaws in us and in our department. If you want the best then do not complain when asked to put your money where your mouth is. Most of you are the same ones who will sit on your butts when it comes to going to council meetings, voting, or just showing up to voice your concerns. By all means, I love hearing about how we need better education, better equipment, better PAY but sitting in these little rooms bashing the department does nothing. As I said before WE are all for those improvements but it costs money to get these things, so if you refuse to help out stay out of it. It’s easy to sit back and point the finger and I know because I’ve done it, but it solves nothing!! I don't see any of you doing more than what you are required to for what you get paid so why should others, remember that finger you’re pointing? Now look at that hand and see how many are pointed back at you.
I would like to thank the community for all that they have done with the support, and love, it helps us more than you realize. Just don't get caught up in this debate if you don't plan on doing anything about it.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

BurnTower,

I understand your sentiments, but I have personally gone to the last council meeting, and intend to go to more in the future. I have met with civilians and spoken to them about the concerns within the department. I devote many hours of my life to organizing people in order to help you. I have also been in contact with City Council via email. People are helping. Our actions do speak volumes. Please be patient.

We are NOT pointing our fingers at the individual FF's, but rather the administration for failing to give you the tools you all needs to perform your jobs. If citizens don't know the problems, they cannot be expected to read minds and fix the problems. No one is intending to harm you or your brothers, but time has come to change the problems. These people are on your side.

Stay safe, and THANK YOU

Posted by oldfric07 on August 24, 2007 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Burntower is correct about something - Charleston firefighters aren't hicks. They are dedicated and courageous.

Their leaders were not forced into their positions. They accepted them and thus they took responsibility for the issues that are being brought up. Thus, the only way for this to ever die down is for the Chief to go and a replacement be sought who has experience leading a department in a progressive manner.

99.999% of the firefighters in the CFD are trained to the level required by the current chief. That isn't enough.

Like it or not change is coming. Whether it's rapid is up to the Mayor. Changes need to be made to operations.

Posted by Early on August 24, 2007 at 12:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Burntower, just your average citizen here. I never knew some of the needs of our fire department till this whole mess happened. It seems the union had superior knowledge and experience and made recommendations that were not followed leading to the disaster. For the average citizen it is all hindsight in respect to the administration responsible for the fire department. In other words, I do not believe that if the majority of the public knew there were needs not being addressed, that we would have said "not my problem" and walked on. Maybe, just maybe those men would not have lost their lives, thats in Gods hands. What is it we can do in your opinion that would unify us and make the situation better?

Posted by Kerry on August 24, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mayor Riley and Chief Thomas are NOW suddenly for sweeping changes.

Fishburne (leader of the Public Safety Committee in 2002) NOW suddenly wants City Council to be more involved in overseeing the operation of the Fire Department.

My question to these imbeciles, who will soon take credit for bringing the CFD up to national standards if we allow them to do so, is:

WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU IN 2002!!!

It all makes me sick. It is time to point fingers and hold those responsible for the deaths of nine firefighters fully accountable for their inaction while holding positions of so called leadership.

Please do not turn Riley, Thomas, or Fishburne into heroes by patting them on the back NOW.

Posted by Kerry on August 24, 2007 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mount Pleasant got rid of their good old boy fire chief who finally found out that the procedures in place to prevent sexual harrassment in the workplace did actually apply to him. Too bad he was able to slide out under the crack at the bottom of the door with his reputation, retirement and pension intact.

The good news is his replacement, Chief Williams, is a true professional and highly qualified to lead the department in Mount Pleasant.

If anyone is seeking the opinion of a Chief that not only meets but exceeds national standards, I suggest you drive across the bridge and visit one at the MPFD.

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Burntower: We are NOT criticizing the ffs at CFD. God knows you people are ALSO heroes. After losing nine of your brothers, some of you questioned how things were done, but you continued to serve the public by responding to fires with the equipment you have and the training you were given and we all thank you for that. We ARE criticizing your chief, some of your ACs and BCs AND the mayor and council for not providing you with the equipment and training that brings you up to standard. It took the loss of nine ffs to bring this to light. ALL of you are important to us....we don't want to lose anymore of you. We want ALL of you to have the safest equipment, the proper equipment and the training so that if you still think things aren't being handled properly by your supervisors, you have a choice of leaving the department if you want to and going somewhere else without having to get more training so that you are up to other department's standards. You and your brothers stay safe.

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 1:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Early: Your vote will hurt the most. Riley has no business "serving" another term in office. Council members who do not care about their public servants should likewise be voted out. Attend the council meetings and let your voice be heard. But more than anything, support your ffs. Stop by the stations occasionally and bring a plate of cookies or brownies and TELL them you appreciate what they do. If a ff is behind you at a lunch counter, buy him lunch. They are not paid enough for the job they do. After 9-11, many people did this, and then stopped doing it and forgot about our heroes.

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kerry: At least two of the council members have come forth and admitted they made mistakes by not keeping up with what was going on and they are willing to get involved in making improvements now. They are Fishburne and Gallant. I do not think they are trying to ride to glory on Joe's shirttails, because, from where I sit, Joe is riding down the proverbial tube. Cautiously watch what these two council members do. If they are "talking the talk" but not "walking the walk", vote them out, also.

Posted by Burntower on August 24, 2007 at 2:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Please understand that I am not upset with the ones of you who are active in trying to better the department, I was just sick of hearing about how we are cheating incompetent uneducated morons. I do realize that not everyone is saying that but to the ones that are, I challenge you to show your face, not to fight but to voice your opinion in person. That would be the quickest way to right what has been wrong for so long, it will not all happen at once but getting it started is the hardest part. Once again we do THANK YOU ALL for your support.

Just a Firefighter

Posted by FiddlerCrab7 on August 24, 2007 at 3:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The issues here are not with the firefighters. I think people respect firefighters and think of them as career professionals who put their lives at stake every day. What has shocked so many people is the lack of leadership and support of the CFD by the city.

The city's priorities are hard to understand, i.e. golf-cart tunnels and ball parks, and seem to echo national trends with infrastructure and public safety. The recent bridge collapse, mining disaster, and Deutsche Bank tragedies are other examples.

F7

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 24, 2007 at 3:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gee, a union wants more personnel (which ends up with them gaining more members) - that's original. (rolls eyes) Most area FD's don't have 4 people per apparatus. Aside from that, the rest of their recommendations aren't bad.

mac0cm4,

Are you serious with this post? Of course most fire departments in the area don't have 4 people per apparatus. That's the whole problem we've been screaming about for years. This isn't a local problem, but a national problem. Why is it "roll eyes" when union members demand more perosnnel to ride the trucks. I don't know if you're a firefighter in SC or not, but in case you didn't know, unions are not recognized in the state. It's a Right-to-Work state so becoming a union member is a non-issue. There are no requirements to join the union in CFD nor NCFD. If a person chooses to do so, he/she can; if they don't they don't. The only problem I've seen from this occurred 10-12 years ago when CFD & NCFD sued their respective cities for back-pay over deducting their eat & sleep time. In both instances, the firefighters won only to have council members come out in the local papers complaining and blaming the firefighters about the settlements and insuing tax raises on the citizens that came about for their mistakes. Then, many of the very members who wanted nothing to do with sticking their necks out and taking the hit which would come by finally standing up for our rights, wanted to share in the same benefits. Well, I can't speak for CFD, but NCFD firefighter's who weren't union members received the benefit of a change in work schedule from 24-on/24-off to 24-on/48-off, and eventually ended up bringing a second lawsuit to try to gain their compensation, which amounted to less than $1,500.00 compared to over $10,000.00 per union member. So don't question when the union demands better pay, better working conditions, better equipment, more staffing. They don't do it for their own benefit; they do it for the benefit of the ENTIRE BROTHERHOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Kerry on August 24, 2007 at 3:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Seems like the Union dropped the ball right along with the rest if you ask me...I thought they were there to stand up for the firefighters, but all the Union did was call for a vote on the recommendations and present them to the Mayor and Council to be ignored. The local Firefighters Union apparently carries no clout and should have made more noise over the deficiencies and the failure of the officials in leadership capacities to address them back in 2002.

Add the local Union to the growing list of the guilty as charged.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 3:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kerry,

I have to disagree, respectfully...The Union HAS been trying to make headway in this city, but this city refuses to acknowledge their existence, and with less than the needed number of FF in the Union, there isn't enough a$$ behind them to push the changes they need through.

Please don't be so quick to judge the Union, I was in the beginning, and I did my homework and found to the contrary. Just for information sake, the Union Rep, Roger Yow was the one that reminded the City that this document was submitted in 2002. If they didn't want to listen and put these things into effect now, then we need to see it for what it is...the CITY'S responsibility.

Respectfully,

Posted by Neponset on August 24, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK, most of us agree, lets all show up on election day - vote and vote often. And tell a friend about the issues - tell as many friend as you can!

Posted by Neponset on August 24, 2007 at 4:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lets approach this sad situation from a different angle - it is like a host (ie. tax payer) who throws a party and no one shows up. What is the host to think and will the host continue to offer the invitation?

Posted by rjahopp on August 24, 2007 at 4:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Sofa Super Store (SSS) tragedy is not about politics (Riley or Thomas or City Council) or leadership or training or equipment or Union recommendations to follow national safety standards or other “expert” safety recommendations. Although safety practices and firefighting practices should continuously be reviewed and updated as necessary, none of this makes an iota of difference in the tragic loss of life. It’s about human error.

The nine firemen, including three Captains, were not rookies. They and the Chief and Asst. Chief had almost 200 man-years of firefighting experience. They knew what they were doing and used that experience at the SSS on June 18th but they were doomed by human error - a tragic mistake was made: A DOZEN PLUS FIREMEN, SOME REPORTEDLY ARMED ONLY WITH SUPPLY HOSES, ENTERED AND REMAINED IN A BURNING BUILDING WHICH SEEMED TO EVIDENCE CLEAR SIGNS OF BEING STRONGLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO FLASHOVER. When smoke was seen seeping from the ceiling, maybe the use of the infrared cameras could have saved their lives. (Understanding that this happened before Thomas arrived and, when he did get on scene, he was misinformed by dispatch that a civilian [Tyrrell] was in the building [store], not in a separate workshop. Realizing the true situation, he immediately ordered all of his men from the store. About half of the men got out, but, it was too late for nine of them.)

Improvement can and should be made in the firefighting practices and safety procedures in most any fire department in the country. But, as in the SSS, no matter how many years of experience are available, human nature says mistakes will continue to be made, sometimes resulting in the loss of life.

Yow’s quote that "Chief Thomas had his chance to change before nine good men died, and he refused to." is more than unfair and rightfully challenged by Riley; there is no malfeasance on either of their parts regarding the SSS tragedy. None of the Union’s past or current recommended changes, although many may be valuable, would have likely made a difference in saving the nine experienced firemen at the SSS.

Posted by Neponset on August 24, 2007 at 4:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To continue on my theme, I direct you to Matthew 22:1-14 (ie. the host invited folks but they didn't/would't come).

Posted by ssm on August 24, 2007 at 4:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

BattChiefNCFD-well said. Just wanted to clarify that joining the union will soon no longer be a non-issue. Bill HR 980 has passed the House and is on it's way to the Senate which reconvenes in January. Once it passes there, it's on the way to the Pres. to become law. This will be a federal law that ensures Public Safety employees the right to organize and bargain.

Posted by Neponset on August 24, 2007 at 4:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry, wrong board - I thought I was talking to the sad school attendence situation. But maybe it applies here.

Posted by Radiowave on August 24, 2007 at 4:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

“Posted by Burntower - Please understand that I am not upset with the ones of you who are active in trying to better the department, I was just sick of hearing about how we are cheating incompetent uneducated morons. I do realize that not everyone is saying that but to the ones that are, I challenge you to show your face, not to fight but to voice your opinion in person. That would be the quickest way to right what has been wrong for so long, it will not all happen at once but getting it started is the hardest part. Once again we do THANK YOU ALL for your support.”

Besides Roger Yow, there was one other citizen who spoke at the Tuesday council meeting. He stood up to the mike and said he was grateful to CFD members, thanked them for their service, then urged the mayor and council to continue to press for more changes to keep our fire fighters and citizens safe. I suspect if many more voters step up to the microphone for the Sept and Oct city council meetings, a lot more council members will be willing to publicly support change as Mr. Fishburne and Gallant did Tuesday night. Don’t need to wait to November to keep things moving forward.

Just a citizen

Posted by solutions on August 24, 2007 at 4:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

All these deaths were preventable, as are most deaths in the fire service!

Stop pointing fingers and come up with solutions, get involved! I know that saying it easy and then doing it is different. And some are involved which is good. Just be aware that the Mayor or the Council might not have a choice on the future. The choice might come from the following:
1) Insurance Carriers / Underwriters
2) regulatory agencies (Fed & State)
3) public citizens

Look at this way. The cost to prepare and avoid this situation is going to be small to compared to the future.

Cost for Training Staff: need atleast 6-Certified Instructors, 250,000.00 per year for training budget & equipment, proper training facility. Cost a year- $1,250,000.00 per year for five years to fix the problems is a good estimate to start from the basics for all levels.
Five year Total- $6,250,000.00

Cost of one Potential Lawsuit - ???????

Good report to review will be the Baltimore City FD training fatality which occurred this year.

Good Luck in improving your system and situation.

" Everyone Goes Home" PERIOD!!!!!

Posted by ssm on August 24, 2007 at 4:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Heads up Jim! He's back. LOL

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 5:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Respectfully, had the department been willing to train their men (including their leadership) better, the recognizable signs of flashover and collapse might have been recognized, and they MIGHT have made the right decision not to allow the men in. The years are insignificant when they aren't trained to use them effectively. That is NOT a slam to the fallen, they do as they are told, all of the men do...I think it is time for people to pull their heads out of the sand, or wherever they stuff them, and see that this is a failure well beyond the scope any of us could have imagined.

Posted by jameschucktown5 on August 24, 2007 at 5:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

anybody to believes roger yow over rusty thomas does not know either of them. yow has an agenda to whip things up to prove his relevance. no matter what is said, he will object. thomas is an honorable man who respects his ff and the vast majority of them respect him. he deserves respect.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mayor Riley:

Can you say "CONTROL FREAK"?

Chief Thomas: Can you say it, too?

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 6:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Did anyone catch Riley's reply on Channel 5 to Yow's letter? Honest to pete, if he says, "We are #1 ISO rating" one more time, I am going to vomit.... When asked if he remembered the report, he made mention that the chief looked at it (read, I'm passing the buck).....and then went on to another issue. Keep campaigning Joe, it makes you sound like an idiot!

jameschucktown5: An "honorable man" does not tell two different stories. Immediately after the fire, the chief said, when asked if he would do anything differently if he had to do it over, "no, we would do it exactly the same." After the panel came up with many major areas that needed MUCH immediate improvement in the CFD, he said, "we are going to make some changes." You don't lose NINE men and say you would do things exactly the same.....that means, you would lose NINE men AGAIN.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 6:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Unbelievable...after all of the EVIDENCE and people are still sucking down the Kool-aid???

Roger's agenda would be what?????? HE IS RETIRED!!! No chance of moving up on any ladders there! Good grief...

Unbelievable...

Vesta! You go!!! giggle Keep it up!

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 6:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Quote from story above, "He (Riley) maintains that the city already budgets for four firefighters on each of its engines, even though the review panel said the city still falls short of that goal."

Oh yeah? If it's in the budget, why aren't there 4 FF on each engine? Where's that budget money going?

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 6:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Quote from Fishburne: "How did we think we had the best-led, best-trained, best-equipped fire department in the state, and maybe beyond, when the fire obviously showed that wasn't the case?" he asked. "That is a question for the chief, the mayor, City Council and the whole community. How did we not do better?"

Answer: Because you have been sadly misled by the good ole boys, Riley and Thomas.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 7:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.wcbd.com/midatlantic/cbd/news...

Here's the link to the 2002 recommendations made to the CFD.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Page 2 of the above report gives an example of an incident that occurred in Lairdsville, NY in 2001 where NFPA guidelines weren't being followed and in a lawsuit that followed, the Asst Chief was found guilty of Criminal Negligent Homicide!

Folks, they don't write these standards for nothing! They are to protect the men and women fighting fires!

Wake up, Riley! Smell the "smoke"!

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 7:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's great people are concerned - but why now? Because of the tragedy?

This is no better than those who wait to change something until something bad happens; which just so happens to be what most here are accusing upper management of doing.

Where were you years ago when we needed you?

Most people didn't give FF'ers a second look now all of a sudden the processes and every minute detail are being scrutinized. Now all of a sudden people are stepping up speaking for the men, demanding changes, and acting like this was a fight they've been involved in from the start.

These men may need you now but if you would have spoken up years ago it very well "may" have saved the lives of the 9.

Hard to hear that isn't it?

Imagine what Chief Thomas is going through having to hear the very same question I just proposed to you which many are throwing in his face?

However, the more important question is..

Where will you be years from now when the dust has settled? Judging history you won't be here still supporting the CFD.

You want to help support the CFD now? Well that means you'll be here to support them tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that.....

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 7:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If the chief and the mayor had listened to the same recommendations years ago, "it very well may have saved the lives of 9 men"

Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a horrible tragedy for the public to become aware of the problems that have now come to light.

No one has to accuse upper management of waiting until a tragegy to make changes. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW! Upper management should have made these changes YEARS ago and then none of us would be discussing this and 9 men would be home with their loved ones tonight.

Where was "upper management", as you call it, years ago when the men went to them with safety recommendations?

I believe the FF appreciate the support of the ordinary people that they serve and protect. Yes, perhaps they should have received this much support years ago, but it appears that the good ole boy system in place at the fire department's "Upper management" and the mayor's office managed to keep things well hidden from public view.

The public's lack of information about this dept. did not cause this tragedy as you elude to in your comment. But the public's quest for the truth and fight for changes in this department may very well prevent another tragedy.

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 8:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

charleytowngirl wrote "The public's lack of information about this dept. did not cause this tragedy as you elude to in your comment."

.
.
.
You read it wrong dear. That wasn't what I was "eluding" to. You completely missed the point.
.
.
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And if you are feeling defensive maybe it's for a reason. No?
.
.
.
Those who have been on the side of the CFD know who they are and those who haven't know who they are as well.

If you're just now coming to the side of the CFD I hope you are still here years from now because we could have used you 10-15 years ago.

Posted by hawneena on August 24, 2007 at 8:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You know after reading this story one thing jumped into my mind. It may not seem like a proper analogy to some, but similar results occurred on a much larger scale.
Anyone remember the Iran-Contra hearings? Col. Oliver North tryed to warn the world about Osama Bin Laden, and then Sen. Al Gore could not pronounce the name and burst out laughing. No one took Col. North seriously and look what happened.
My point is when people are warned and fail to heed the warning, then tradgedy is sure to strike.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 8:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You are right, Hebthree, I misread your statement...here's the quote:

"These men may need you now but if you would have spoken up years ago it very well "may" have saved the lives of the 9."

I will correct my statement. The public's failure to speak up did not kill 9 men. The general public wasn't aware of the problems that existed.

Do I feel defensive? Damn skippy I do. I would hate to be in the position of the 9's families having to explain to my child that his daddy died because of serious mistakes on the part of others!

Your name wouldn't be Todd, is it?

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 8:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

charleytown wrote

"These men may need you now but if you would have spoken up years ago it very well "may" have saved the lives of the 9."

I will correct my statement. The public's failure to speak up did not kill 9 men. The general public wasn't aware of the problems that existed.

.
.
.
.
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That's the point

The general public wasn't aware because they weren't involved.

And that statement was to prove a point it wasn't to "elude" the public caused the deaths.

I'm happy the public is getting involved but you better be in it for the long haul because we haven't seen public support ever.

Don't just support us now.. support us tomorrow.

And if you were supporting us yesterday - then Thank You.

and No.. my name is not Todd.

Posted by oldfric07 on August 24, 2007 at 8:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

When leaders take positions of authority and responsibility in publci safety, they should be aware that it's not a kingdom. It's not a private service - it exists because taxpayers fund it.

The Chief understood this and accepted the praise for a long time. He was warned about the possibility of something happening. When the tragedy occurred, it was only a matter of time until the lid came off.

Now he has a lot of explaining to do. Not just to the public because the public usually forgives, but to others who decide things based on written declarations, not emotions.

And really it hasn't even started yet. This is a cakewalk compared to the next 6 months.

Make no mistake though - the firefighters are doing their jobs. Leaders get paid to make decisions. Whether bad or good they answer for them. In this case it's bad.

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 8:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Very well said oldfric

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 8:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hebthree:
What do you feel is the best way the public can support these men/women....not just today, but on into the future?

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 8:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Stay involved. Ask questions. Do as you are now but not because it is fresh in the minds but because you are aware of the dangers involved and care for the men.

It hurts when the priority of the city has been the police department.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 8:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is a little difficult for the general public to know things that the City Council members claim they didn't even know...

Sure, the general public was under the impression that all was well..If you aren't married to or family member of a CFF, how would anyone know? Problems in this department we hidden well, maybe because people were afraid to report issues? Maybe because administration did a bang up job keeping it all quiet? Who knows...but if major deficiencies would have been told, I can assure you, some of us (at least those of us with FF family members) WOULD have been on it.

I assure you that I will be seriously looking at the local departments in my area now, BEFORE men die.

Unfortunately, tragedies like these are usually what it takes to bring out the truth and change. It isn't the most ideal, but like, I said, if we don't know, how can we ask for change? And just because we didn't know, doesn't mean we sit back and wait for it to go away. Now we know, now we have an obligation to push for change.

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

nickiegarbeil "It is a little difficult for the general public to know things that the City Council members claim they didn't even know..."

You are right - but how many people of the public went to the city council meetings?

Another quote

"Now we know, now we have an obligation to push for change."

And stay involved right? =)

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well said, Nickie. Hebthree, I believe that if the general public knew of the issues to the extent we know now that many would have spoken out sooner.

Posted by easybootlicked on August 24, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Union said something in 2002. Did they also say something in 2003? 2004? 2005? 2006? first 5 months of 2007? If things were as bad as people say, why didn't this come out before now? We have the P&C and 3 news stations in this city. Could Mr. Yow not get any of them to talk about this before the SSS fire? Or did the Union not fight as hard for safety as it did for money and vacation time?

Yes, right after the fire Chief said that the CFD wouldn't change. Maybe that was emotion speaking. Maybe he didn't want people to think that The 9 did something wrong (i.e. they died because they messed up). Nobody has done that (which is good) but at the time maybe he (Chief) thought that could happen and wanted to make sure it didn't. Maybe after getting some time to think about it, he decided changes could be made. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong... but maybe I'm right.

Just some thoughts...

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I would agree with that.

But in the past the general public didn't care and all I don't want to happen is in the future it goes back to "oh they are just fire fighters".

This warning came out in 2002 and there wasn't much, if any at all, outcry from the public with a demand for this change to happen. Why?

Like I said - and don't get me wrong

I'm VERY happy the support is here now but we'll need it tomorrow and the next day and the next day as well.

That's all I'm saying.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 9:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

But was the general public aware of the recommendations in 2002? I bet not.........

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 9:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

charleytowngirl wrote "But was the general public aware of the recommendations in 2002? I bet not........."

Well it was made public

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 9:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

easybootlicked, there is no doubt in my mind that Chief is grieving over this, just like the other FF's and families. I honestly think that many of his comments in the beginning were coming from a man that was in shock. I'm not even sure that he is aware of how his comments sounded. That being said, is more reason, in my mind, why he needs to be (at a minimum) on admin. leave. He AND Garvin need to be on admin leave.

The more that comes out on how this dept. is run and the changes that were recommended and not followed long ago, can't be helping their state of mind. You have got to have a clear mind to run a dept. this big. And with the added pressure of all the publicity, well, it can't be good for his mental state right now. It's not safe for him, the men/women in the dept and the general public.

He needs to take a break.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 9:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I must have missed that story in 2002.....I'm your average person, I get my news from the P&C and the local news channels. I admit it.....never been to a council meeting.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 9:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hebthree,

Maybe the right bigmouths weren't in town or aware of the problems?? :) I honestly NEVER read the P&C, nor do I usually watch local news channels...I guess I honestly looked to world issues more than looking to the local issues we SHOULD have been looking in to...

I have family in local fire service, so if they complain, then I know...if not, then I don't...not the most ideal, but if they keep their mouths shut we have no other insight...

Now that I know, I won't ignore it again...That's a promise.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Easybootlicked,

I could be totally mistaken, as I am not, nor have I ever been a member of a Union, but...it is my understanding that Mr. Yow can pretty much do nothing unless it is voted on. He is not allowed to be a rogue representative if his local chapter don't wish, or vote for him to speak..

As I said, I could be wrong, but that is MY understanding. Fact still remains, the Unions ANYWHERE should never need to ask for things that are standards in procedure...not excusing, but I refuse to let the City off on that one...

Posted by Kobersteen on August 24, 2007 at 9:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

hawneena wrote:
> Anyone remember the Iran-Contra hearings? Col. Oliver North
> tryed to warn the world about Osama Bin Laden, and then Sen.
> Al Gore could not pronounce the name and burst out laughing.
> No one took Col. North seriously and look what happened.

That is an urban legend...
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.asp

I agree with the intent... just not the validity of your reference.

Let the deaths of my 9 brave brothers not be in vain.

Posted by hebthree on August 24, 2007 at 9:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

charleytowngirl
nickiegarbeil

Thanks you two. I hope people follow your lead and continue to do so.

Posted by hawneena on August 24, 2007 at 9:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kobersteen, I had copies of the actual trial transcripts that got lost in a computer crash.
If they were fake then someone should be shot for putting out false evidence. Anyway, like you said, the intent is the same.
P.S. snopes is not always accurate either. All boils down to not believing everything you read I guess.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Hebthree, sorry I got so defensive at your intial comments...you know a little of my reasons for being so passionate about this matter. :-)

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 10:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Easybootlicked: said "Yes, right after the fire Chief said that the CFD wouldn't change. Maybe that was emotion speaking. Maybe he didn't want people to think that The 9 did something wrong (i.e. they died because they messed up). Nobody has done that (which is good) but at the time maybe he (Chief) thought that could happen and wanted to make sure it didn't." I wonder if nobody has said that the nine did something wrong because most people (ffs and civilians)when viewing the tapes, hearing the videos and reading the ffs' comments on these message boards KNOW that these 9 brave men DID NOTHING WRONG. These men followed orders. WE already know what was "messed up" and it certainly wasn't these nine men. How dare you even insinuate that it was their fault.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 24, 2007 at 10:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hebthree,

We can only hope! Thank you

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 24, 2007 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta, I know Eastbootlicked's comment was a little hard to follow, but I don't think he was insinuating that at all. I think he meant that he thought Chief may have made the comments he made right after the fire to keep the general public from making comments like that. At least that's the way I took it.....

Posted by Harpo on August 24, 2007 at 10:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm pretty sure Ollie North was referring to Abu
Nidal and not Osama Bin Laden.

The suits to follow will allege negligent deaths on
the part of the City of Charleston Fire Department.
Even today, in advance of official findings from the
various agencies investigating the fire, it appears
proving negligence will be a walk in the park for
the legal teams. A settlement will most likely be
the outcome and it will be dire.

The political race for mayor may be over by the time
the suits begin in earnest and, based on the usual
voter complacency and ignorance, the mayor may be
able to deflect this issue long enough to retain
his seat.

If, however, suits begin prior to the race and gain
high national coverage, the impact on Mayor Riley
may be negative enough to defeat his bid for
reelection. This is the drama we will witness in
the balance of 2007 and beginning of 2008.

There are dark clouds on Charleston's horizon, as
of a great storm looming distant. The P & C is
doing a great job keeping the story in the public
eye. We should strive to do the same in any way
that we can.

Posted by vesta on August 24, 2007 at 10:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you haven't gotten a good printable version of Roger Yow's suggestions to the CFD in 2002, go to SCONFIRE and, under the article title and small blurb, click on the Union Recommendations. Thank you, Mr. Yow for making this information known to the general public.

Posted by FF40212 on August 24, 2007 at 11:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I just read the recommendations of the union from 2002. For the record, I left Charleston after testing in Charlotte (my mother lives in upstate SC) and here in Louisville.

I did not leave because I was dissatisfied with the department (as one may be led to believe from that report).

Posted by cfdiaffman on August 24, 2007 at 11:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I just read the actual press release on the 2002 recommendations on the union site. Anyone interested go to www.local61.com

Posted by oldcap on August 25, 2007 at 12:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ff40212 - that's now what you told the guys in 15. Just suck it up.

Posted by FF40212 on August 25, 2007 at 12:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

oldcap - Ask Captain Johnny Cammer what I told him my last night there.

P.S. Sign your name

Posted by oldcap on August 25, 2007 at 12:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Son I don't need to ask Johnny. He's a good man and so was his dad-we were on Cannon Street together. But you've already been caught out twice. Do you really want the third time to happen. Because what you said the last night has no bearing on what you said leading up to it. Three boys heard it. We all know it. You just keep coming on here and embarassing yourself.

What's funny is how you come on here and attack people. We let it play out because we knew the real deal about you. Now others find out you were one of the ones that left and have your name stamped on a report. That makes you disgruntled. Now you're trying to worm your way back in. Sad. Son go pay attention to your job in Kentucky and let the men who stayed here take care of here.

And if you do worm your way back with Rusty it won't be for long boyo. He's leaving. Oh and the new chief won't be an inside man. Keep telling yourself different. So far you are batting .000

Posted by oldcap on August 25, 2007 at 12:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way - don't ever ask people to ask Roger about you. He'll tell the truth. In fact he already has-so just move along.

Posted by FF40212 on August 25, 2007 at 7:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Once again, the truth has no bearing in some of the posts on here. "Caught out twice"? Meaning what? "Three boys heard it?" There are 8 guys assigned to each shift on Coming Street. Your post makes no sense.....

I am saying now (as I said many times in 2002), that we left Charleston because of personal and family reasons. I had no idea that would be used in that report. It was in no way a reflection on the department and simply that, a personal decision our family made.

Once again, for someone who is claiming to be a captain, you have no guts.

You know who I am. Why won't you sign your name? For someone who claims to have had enough service to serve with 2 generations of Charleston FFs, what do you have to be scared of?

I still cannot understand how you people are being taken as "credible" on this site when you are IN HIDING!? If you truly believe what you say, why wouldn't you put your name by it?

Posted by easybootlicked on August 25, 2007 at 8:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

vesta,

Read what is written, not what you want to see written. I never insinuated that it was their fault. Learn to read, then you can comment on what I post.

Posted by oldcap on August 25, 2007 at 10:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

FF40212,

Learn to get your stories straight. 3 people working with you on your shift heard what you said. You complained about Charleston not only to them but guys in the union you call your friends. Keep popping up running your mouth and you'll get embarassed again because you don't realize whats going on. People were laughing here because they knew your name was on the report. Son, you are one of the worst types. You play up to Chief Thomas after you questioned the department behind his back, left for another job, and talked to guys since then about the job here.

Maybe in Louisville they appreciate your type. Here, we don't.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 25, 2007 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

FF40212: We all know that what we may give a superior as a reason for leaving and what we tell our buddies may not always be the same thing. Sometimes we don't tell the real reason to a superior to avoid burning bridges. No shame in it, it's just the way it has to be sometimes.

It surprises me, though, that you seem to think it is so important for people posting here to sign their name. What's up with that? I can tell from many that post here which ones are with the dept and which ones are fire experts from other areas.

I can also tell the ones that aren't well liked or credible.

I can also tell which ones SUPPORT the remaining FF's and which ones are a** kissers. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Oh, and before you start spouting off that I'm not a FF and therefore I have no right to comment, I have every right to show my support for the FF and to voice my opinion about the lack of leadership in the department. You don't have to be a faithful employee, disgruntled employee or a boot lick to post here. I am none of those. Just a very concerned citizen. From what I've seen posted here, we, as the supporters for change in leadership have the numbers on our side.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

CHARLEYTOWNGIRL,

Careful, next thing you know you will be getting private PMs and emails insulting your parenting skills...

Posted by Buzzardman101 on August 25, 2007 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Buzzarman is glad to see all of you folk's comments. Many of you see the massive problem the exists within the whole city structure. The mayor is at the top of this chain and bears alot of responsibility. This is what happens when a person rules with an iron fist for many years. Who is to blame?, voters who could care less as long as they get what they want and are partially to blame. Buzzardman sees much "rot and flesh" down there and he is just circling in with his lazer sights on for the "Three Stooges." That would be, Larry, Joe and Ruso. More facts keep coming out exposing problem after problem in the daily operations much less the fire scene incident command leadership catastrophe that exists. How many more negatives will be found? Where is the positive surrounding these (9)deaths? You do not loose nine men without some major issues. If everyone knew what really happened there would be public outcry for immediate resignations or at least suspensions. Only quick and great change in the CFD leadership will lead to a positive outcome. The responsibility and change starts with the mayor and down the line to the 2-scene commanders who did one pitiful job at this great loss of experienced firefighters. Those 2-men really think that they did the best they could and they are not going to change or admit their wrong doings. I still can not believe either of them are allowed to lead men at fires. The CFD will not change with the current chief at the helm. He will continue to do things his way no matter what time tested fire science standards and procedures are available. He has stated his position and only loosened it due to media pressure just to satisfy the minor to date outcry. The CFD has a leadership and old style firefighting cultural problems going way back. Not one person inside the department will be suitable to lead the dept into the future. I do not remember any search for a chief when this current one was appointed by the mayor. I do want to commend favorably on the other memebers of the fire dept during this trying time. The men who man the engines are not to blame. We all know that when the siren is heard, 100% help is on the way. The dept, city council and the mayor will go through major upheavels in the near future but in the end it will be a better system for everyone. Damage control is not an option for good change. I would like to know what the Nine dead firefighter's would think about the situation today. I bet that they would have some real hard comments leading up to the cause of their deaths. They would be shocked as to what factors caused their deaths. Thank God for the newspaper, TV and radio media,the union and people like you all at a time when the facts are hush, hush. First full circle for the Buzzardman.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 25, 2007 at 10:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, I'm well aware of what his methods of attacking in private are. Amazing that he will make a personal attack on someone in a email and think that doesn't make the rounds? I think he's been well discussed....

Next topic, please........

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 10:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Buzzardman,

And I commend you on a BEAUTIFUL full circle you have made...man the skies, oh buzzard...the carcasses are coming.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 10:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Back on topic...

I think it is very important to note that on a Firefighter's blog, there is a story of how these same issues were discussed in 1996! Yes, 1996! So, why exactly did the City ignore requests for so long?

Very informative blog...check it out, if you haven't already...

www.firefighterhourly.com

Posted by vesta on August 25, 2007 at 10:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Kudos to Gregorie for demanding the Chief's resignation in today's paper!

Posted by oldcap on August 25, 2007 at 12:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Who made personal attacks by email? If you are discussing the firefighter from Louisville all you have to do is forward his comments to two locations - The Omsbudsman for the City of Charleston. Explain he is a former employee and good friend of Chief Thomas. This will get forwarded to Chief Thomas via Pam and it will make him livid. A copy also goes on file at 80 Broad.

You should also send copies of the email to the Louisville Fire Chief. Explain the situation. The Chief won't be able to do anything but it will be on record so that if it continues, even once more, you can request the City Of Louisville to look into the matter.

I'm writing to our local president and the Louisville local because he is acting out towards people supportive of the IAFF and firefighters.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 25, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Good idea, Oldcap! His emails to one of the supporters were VERY Ugly!

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Cap...

Posted by right2work on August 25, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Silence through fear and intimidation, the union credo. The IAFF is so corrupt, why would we expect any less. It's sad that honest fire fighters are members of such an organization.

http://www.nlpc.org/artindx.asp#ff

Posted by Boosterhose on August 25, 2007 at 1:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oldcap don't take Todd serious I'm sure nobody else does. If he's active in Louisville they know what a joke he was.
Todd Bass, Todd Bass, oh yeah James Island threatened to have him arrested if he showed up at more of their fires.
I don't think he deserved to be arrested but apparently he ticks everybody off.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 2:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Unbelievable, that is ONE reason this FD is so screwed up is because this state is Right to Work. It enables the administration to pick and choose whatever they want or don't want to follow, leaving the men voiceless...

But I can assure you that when the Union DOES get a good plug off at the city, EVERY FF benefits, now don't they?

Not knocking those not in the Union, but...remember, the Union fights to butter ALL slices of bread, not just Union members...

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Booster, I actually DID take it pretty seriously...

Posted by ssm on August 25, 2007 at 2:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie-check you email

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 25, 2007 at 2:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

right2work.........whats your point???

Silence through fear and intimidation....sounds like Rustys credo to me!

Did you look at the whole list?? It's not just the IAFF. Yes, union leaders can be corrupt, just like politicians.......and lawyers, and Accountants, and Doctors......etc!!

Why don't you instead look at what the IAFF HAS accomplished. HR980 is the latest example, this will bring more power to locals in backward states like SC to help FF's protect themselves from greedy cities like Charleston that think they are disposable assets.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 2:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Folks, Inform yourselves on the truth:

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/legislative...

Posted by right2work on August 25, 2007 at 2:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't believe the AFL-CIO is quite a credible source on this issue. They stand to gain a lot from the passage of HR-980 (IAFF and other public safety unions are member organizations of the AFL-CIO), and the elimination of right to work status. The AFL-CIO and most other labor organizations are CORRUPT at the highest levels.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1...

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 25, 2007 at 2:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Right2Work,
So, like i said before, WTF is your point!! What is so great about the right to work states?? These men will lay it all on the line for you, to protect you. Both FF's and police. Yet, they are treated with comtempt and intimidation if they dare to speak out about their own safety and working conditions. They need a safety net, and the IAFF (as imperfect as it is) is the best at fighting for it's members and all other FF's too.

Corruption is a joke in this country. Where have you been? Presidents lying to get us into a war. Getting BJ's in the White house. Congressmen, having sex with pages, taking bribes and free trips from lobbyists. Riley using his status as mayor to get favorable zoning changes on his property in other cities. It's everywhere.

Wake up Dorothy, your not in Kansas any more!!!

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 2:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So, right2work, why don't we just leave these men completely unrepresented for a little while longer????? I mean right to work has done so much for whom???????

Give me a break...who the he%% do you work for? SCFA? They paying you to slam the Union? The FF Union is NOT corrupt...I would LOVE to hear your rationale for that one...the FF Union is retired and current FF...are THEY corrupt?? Do tell...

Posted by Boosterhose on August 25, 2007 at 3:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Absolute power breeds absolute corruption. Rusty only answered to the mayor and the mayor feels he answers to noone. My union has banded a bunch of us little people to face these titons that stand over us who are now accounting for their actions. If that's corrupt then corrupt I am. My leader must account to me and the rest of my brothers with the balls to stand up and back the union. This is done at our monthly meetings.
I can't speak for the AFL CIO but local 61 answers to its members.

Posted by right2work on August 25, 2007 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not a member of or affiliated in anyway with the SCFA, but I understand that it is a fine and upstanding organization. It seems to be devoid of corruption present in the labor movement. The SCFA doesn't openly oppose it's members attempts to better their community like the IAFF does. Just try being an IAFF member and volunteering your services as a firefighter for the betterment of your community. The local organization in Charleston may not be a problem, but they are supporting the national organization with their dues. The national organization of the IAFF is problematic to say the least. Unfortunately guilt by association applies.

http://firechief.com/leadership/manageme...

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 25, 2007 at 3:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, right2work, as many have said before...you don't have to join, your Union brothers will work their a$$es off for you and YOU still get to benefit...pathetic actually

Posted by Boosterhose on August 25, 2007 at 4:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So R2w what I'm getting out of this is you are working for free in an attempt to suck up to the man. Underpaid ff's are working 2 jobs and don't have the time or energy leftover to "better their community". Is that what your problem is?
If not then you need to spell it out. I don't have the time guess at what you mean seeing as I'm on my 6 day week right now.
The only relief and help has been from my union so why don't you run off to your Republican fundraiser and quit knocking the IAFF.

Posted by Boosterhose on August 25, 2007 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry, It's a 7 day work week this time.

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 25, 2007 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Right2Work, About the SCFA, any fire organization that has a "join Rudy08", has no credibility in my opinion. He is an idiot and no friend of the FF's that has managed to BS the Repugs into thinking he's this savior. Ask any FDNY brother what they think of him.

The fight here is not the scuffle in PGC. It is the local union trying to stand up to a "corrupt old boys club" that directly contributed to the deaths of nine of their brothers, both union and non-union. Truth be told, most of those double-dippers are doing it because it's easy money, not to better their skills or serve the community. To volunteer in their own city which they work, for free, is an FLSA violation and they are also screwing themselves out of o/t.

Do I agree with everything the Intl does, of course not. If I blindly f