Fire training ripe for cheatingCity firefighters say answers shared during online certification exams The Post and Courier
Sunday, August 12, 2007
City firefighters say answers shared during online certification exams 
The Post and Courier (left) Roger Yow, Charleston Firefighters Association director, (right) Fire Chief Rusty Thomas The personnel files of Charleston's top firefighters brim with impressive training certificates. But some of those documents come from online correspondence courses where certificates can be earned and printed from a computer in 15 minutes or less. Some former and current firefighters say the federal government's online training system is ripe for cheating. Sheets of correct answers have routinely been shared among firefighters to ensure passing grades, they say. Jamy Cote, who left the Charleston Fire Department last year, said it was not unusual for firefighters to be provided the answers to certain tests before taking the final exam. That way the department could ensure that it complied with federal training requirements with minimal time spent on the exercise, he said. The sharing of answers is a common practice and is condoned by the department commanders, a current city firefighter said. At least four other former or current firefighters said the same thing. The current employees spoke only on the condition of anonymity, fearing that their careers could be damaged by speaking out. Fire Chief Rusty Thomas issued a memo on June 20 barring his firefighters from speaking to the media about the blaze. Many of the certificates came from online courses offered by the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Mike Stoll, who oversees the independent study program for FEMA, said the agency is aware that the program is vulnerable to cheating. "You know people will do anything they can to make it easier," Stoll said. "How do you stop that?" In written responses to questions from The Post and Courier, city officials said the city is concerned about the allegation of cheating and does not condone such activity. The city also said it would investigate the allegations if the newspaper provides "any specific information" about cheating. In addition, the city said it has no control over the online courses offered by other agencies. The training provided to Charleston firefighters is one of the areas that an independent panel of fire experts plans to study as part of its review of the Sofa Super Store blaze that killed nine Charleston-area firefighters on June 18. Mayor Joe Riley named the six-member panel to study all aspects of the fire and the city's ability to respond to such emergencies. A number of fire service professionals have pointed to lapses in professional standards and accepted firefighting tactics in the sofa store fire. Among other things, experts have questioned why firefighters did not wear full protective gear, pulled undersized hose lines on such a large fire and entered a building with a roof design known to collapse within minutes when exposed to fire. Thomas and his commanders take pride in the department's rich history and in the tactics it has honed during more than a century of firefighting in Charleston. That knowledge is passed from generation to generation and reinforced with daily, in-house training sessions the department conducts for its firefighters. Over and over they practice tying knots, raising ladders and connecting hoses to hydrants. But some current and former firefighters worry that this training has failed to keep pace with important developments in the profession brought on by technological innovations, changes in the way buildings are constructed and advances in strategic planning and command. Those firefighters also complain that the department doesn't seek enough outside training for its firefighters from the South Carolina Fire Academy and other sources. The Charleston Fire Department has budgeted $6,000 this year for training for its 240 members — far less than many surrounding smaller departments. Mount Pleasant Fire Department, with 120 firefighters, budgets around $34,000 a year for training and another $17,000 for travel to fire academies, trade shows, conferences and other events. The North Charleston Fire Department has a $45,000 annual budget for training alone. The Summerville Fire Department has $25,000 budgeted for training its 69 paid firefighters and 41 volunteers. The city says it supplements the $6,000 with in-house training from skilled instructors, low cost local, state and federal classes and, among other things, guest trainers. The amount of training received by Charleston firefighters and their commanders varies greatly from individual to individual, regardless of rank, according to state and local records obtained by The Post and Courier through Freedom of Information Act requests. Roger Yow, who heads the local firefighters' union, Charleston Firefighters Association, that represents nearly half of the department's firefighters, said the department does not provide enough outside training opportunities for firefighters. "The chief has always been against it because he wants people trained his way." Some commanding officers have files thick with diplomas from state and national courses, while others are filled largely with online certificates. Thomas, for instance, has taken only three training courses outside the department in the past seven years, one of which was an online course offered through FEMA. Many of FEMA's online courses focus on crucial aspects of the National Incident Management System, which is designed to standardize the command structure across public safety agencies at all levels of government. The goal is to ensure that all first-responders are on the same page in the event of a major disaster. Incident command has become a thorny subject for the Charleston Fire Department in the aftermath of the sofa store fire. Among other things, fire safety experts have questioned Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin's decision to enter the burning store multiple times while serving as the incident commander. Federal rules call for the incident commander to maintain overall authority from outside so he will have a complete view of the fire, how it is being fought and where each firefighter is located. Thomas has said that he doesn't know if his department procedures mirror those prescribed in the National Incident Management System. The department's policy manual, however, says the department "acknowledges, endorses and will use" those national standards. Most of his top commanders have obtained online certificates through FEMA, attesting to their knowledge of that federal incident command system. In its written responses to questions, the city said "The Charleston Fire Department exercises incident command and trains all members in the NIMS system." FEMA offers a variety of online training courses in incident management through which first- responders can earn certificates of achievement. But there are no safeguards in place to ensure that test-takers have completed the actual lesson plans offered. The final tests can be downloaded without taking the courses, and many of the answers can be gleaned from simple online lesson summaries. Reporters from The Post and Courier successfully obtained several certificates from the federal emergency agency's courses without studying the lesson materials. Some completed the tests and obtained certificates in as little as five minutes by simply copying the answers provided by a reporter who had already passed. The certificates arrived via e-mail within minutes, the test-taker's name neatly printed on the official-looking document. Fire department leaders continue to amass certificates from the online courses. Just this month, Garvin, who was the initial incident commander at the sofa store fire, obtained a certificate for a course on the National Response Plan. And on one day in May, one high-level Charleston fire commander earned a certificate from three separate online courses offered by FEMA. Stoll of FEMA said the online courses are extremely popular among public safety workers around the country. Since October, more than 3 million people have logged on to take courses. But the convenience of the system comes with its own problems, including possible cheating. Stoll said his office even receives reports of answer keys being offered on eBay. The importance of following the lessons taught in these courses cannot be underestimated, federal and state officials said. At any moment, a local police or fire department could find themselves dealing with a catastrophic emergency in which they have to deal with an alphabet-soup of outside government agencies. Such was the case in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and, more recently, in Minneapolis after a major bridge collapsed Aug. 1. Fire department leaders must insist that their firefighters buy into the proven management system, said David Grahl, a district chief with Dayton (Ohio) Fire Department. Otherwise, he said, "it will be a paper system, not the real system." The management system is supposed to be used at all emergencies from car accidents and house fires to hurricanes and wildfires. "It is important on every event," State Fire Academy Superintendant Ed Roper said. "If you are not doing it on the smaller events, you won't be successful with it on the bigger events." Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com. |
Article tools |
|
Notice about comments: Charleston.net is pleased to offer readers the ability to comment on stories. We expect our readers to engage in lively, yet civil discourse. Charleston.net does not edit user submitted statements and we cannot promise that readers will not occasionally find offensive or inaccurate comments posted in the comments area. Responsibility for the statements posted lies with the person submitting the comment, not charleston.net. If you find a comment that is objectionable, please click "suggest removal" and we will review it for possible removal. Please be reminded, however, that in accordance with our Terms of Use and federal law, we are under no obligation to remove any third party comments posted on our website. Full terms and conditions can be read here. |
Comments
This article has 271 comment(s)
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 7:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The City of North Charleston with an equal size fire brigade spends $45,000 a year on quality training. The city of charleston spends $6,000 training 'their' way. Amazing, simply amazing. Looks as if the city of charleston has a very serious leadership problem for condoning this action. There are none more blind than those who 'will' not see. Open your eyes and see whats happing to your city, charleston.
Posted by JonWithnal on August 12, 2007 at 8:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Wait a second...is this actual reporting? Congrats P&C...after 1,000 puff pieces about firefighting -(which no thinking person gave a darn about)-you finally do some actual reporting. Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable.
Posted by mac0cm4 on August 12, 2007 at 8:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The basic NIMS courses online are just a rehashed 'new' version of ICS, which most agencies are familiar with to begin with. The NIMS online courses are often viewed as 'a box that needs to be checked off.' Not to mention they are even more dull than the classroom courses.
NIMS itself is generally a good idea, however there are elements of the system and its implementation that need work. In order to convince all state and local governments to adopt it DHS/FEMA resorted to financial blackmail: Do this or we don't give you any money. And I know you're not surprised that the local agencies can and have been 'bought.' Another flawed aspect is that pencil pushers and 'experts' have made most of the decisions and written most of the NIMS documents - many of these are the same people that orchestrated the 'smooth' Katrina response a few years ago. It's hard to believe that those people in Washington D.C. know how to best run a department elsewhere when we all know just how well D.C. is run.
The usage of NIMS, IMHO, is a good idea on incidents that require it (logically). A minor incident such as a stubbed toe (yes, people call 911 for such stuff) is not likely to benefit from the use of NIMS. Most agencies use at least a portion of NIMS/ICS on every call to begin with and the full implementation might be overkill in many situations.
Posted by oldcap on August 12, 2007 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Finally the truth begins to come out.
Posted by chiefswife on August 12, 2007 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree with you 100% JonWithnal. This was avoidable, and it will be proven time and time again as more evidence is uncovered. You can't simply give men gear and tell them to go fight fire. There is a lot more to it, or you see the end results. I know that with each call my husband answers, there is a risk of it being his last. I also know that if it is his last, it is not because he has been thrown to the wolves like these guys were.
Posted by oldcap on August 12, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/
This guy was saying it ALL ALONG!
Posted by PI_Observer on August 12, 2007 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"We've been doing it this way for years" is a comment you hear often in Charleston. A Mayor that has been in office since 1976 should tell you a lot. He also tolerated a Police Chief who was clearly out of control for years.
This, from the above article speaks volumes. Roger Yow, who heads the local firefighters' union, Charleston Firefighters Association, that represents nearly half of the department's firefighters, said the department does not provide enough outside training opportunities for firefighters. "The chief has always been against it because he wants people trained his way."
Obviously "The Chief's way" did not work and nine firefighters were lost unnecessarily. Truly a tragedy.
Posted by deputy216 on August 12, 2007 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As a deputy in georgia for over twenty seven years we had our training via law inforcement network on television and had to take tests and after that we were in the classroom for inservice tng.training is paramount and on hands and classroom will help in the long run.Your life and everyone around you depends on it.My hat is off to all firefighters and the job they face.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
deputy216: Unfortunately, for all CFD ffs, "the job they face" isn't just dealing with the dangers of fires/wrecks/other incidents. Entering a fire ground, untrained, is very much like sending a child with a BB rifle into a shoot out with one of the FBI's most wanted. You don't need to guess who won't come out of that one alive. Most of us on these boards are 100 percent behind ffs and law enforcement. You aren't paid enough for what you do, but by thunder you ought to be properly trained and equipped and have proper leadership. "Let no man's ghost return to say his training let him down." (Old fire service quote from firefighter hourly)
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
(jaw on floor)
For the love of the Freedom of Information Act.....
Posted by PoliGadfly on August 12, 2007 at 10:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If the online training was a rehash of other training and boring, why the need to cheat? Seems if it were "old hat" stuff, there'd be no need, assuming it was a known comodity in the first instance.Could this be the equivalent of graduating from college because one played a sport but still can't read beyond 3rd grade level?
Secondly, seems we have some character flaws in those who would avail themselves of the available ease with which to cheat. The article almost seems to suggest a flaw in the online courses, or with those who design them, for the problem. Those who cheat, whether to expedite the process or for any other reason, demonstrate their willingness to compromise actual life-threatening effectiveness.
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 12, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Thomas, for instance, has taken only three training courses outside the department in the past seven years, one of which was an online course offered through FEMA."
Doesn't this say alot about the attitude of the chief with regard to education and training. And a $6,000 annual budget? Jeesh! I am thankful that industry I work in demands a certain number of continuing education credits each year in order to keep my license! There is always room to learn more in any business, private or public!
There are more men in the fire department, with as much experience and MORE education than the chief that could probably take his position or at least run it in the interim should he be put on administrative leave. You would think that the investigators would have enough information in this short period of time to at least make that recommendation to the mayor!
Posted by jammer on August 12, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'll never understand why time after time they keep reelecting these idiots... one of the many reasons I moved out of the Charleston district years ago
hopefully they will atleast admit fault and learn so history doesn't repeat itself
as always, my thoughts and prayers for the families of the lost...
Posted by underdog on August 12, 2007 at 10:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Good job on this story, P&C. Thanks for the meat.
That the Chief ordered firefighters to not talk to the press... well, that smacks of absolute irreverence. Chief, don't forget who pays a large chunk of your salary and the (meager) salaries of those who work under your command. On an organizational chart, you all ultimately report to the public that you serve.
I hope this issue will receive full attention in the next mayoral contest.
Posted by Harpo on August 12, 2007 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The Charleston Fire Department will enter the
21st century one way or another. This fire
chief Thomas, from what I've read, is the
primary obstacle that will need to be
surmounted before that can happen.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 11:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Perhaps it is time to call for the immediate resignation of the city of charleston fire chief and his superior, the city of charleston mayor, Joesph P. Riley Jr. I would think the lives of nine heroes warrant it.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow. This disgusts me beyond all reasonable imagination. The CFD men are NOT cheaters.
For anyone who has taken courses (especially online courses) can relate to the fact that "cheating" can easily be mistaken to "teaching the test" or having the famous "review day" or even having an "outline" of what's going to be on the test. Many don't understand how these courses are instructed, so this article, especially the headline, is really misleading. I'm sure that at times, the instructors have given then answers out. It's happened to me - I'm sure it's happened to you.
The point is - courses like these, in open forums and online arenas, are made for refreshing the information so that one could apply it in the field. To say that these firefighters are cheating is absurd. They use the information when drilling and when fighting fire which happens to be more pertinent in this line of work.
The CFD has gone since 1965 without losing a life so they obviously know what they are doing. I'm not disputing that things have to change. All things have to change in time.
And JonWithnal
Your comment is out of line. To say "Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable." It very well may have been avoidable but that doesn't mean these 9 guys were not brave. They still had to go to work. They still had to suit up. And they still had to go into the fire. If that isn't brave I don't know what is. I imagine though John Withnal - you're brave typing behind a keyboard.
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
wow in the 15 years of my life i have NEVER been so pissed off and so agervated with everyone. i mean seriously come on yall.. what the heck is this? "Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable." Are you seriously freakin kidingg me?!?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously; i lost a father figure, a coach, a bestfriend, a teacher and ya'll are sitting here disrespecting and talking about how its Cheif Rusty's fault.. COMPLETE BULL CRAP!! It is as much his fault as it is yours and mine. Cheif did all he can do and this is still a hard time for him; he lost 9 of his best friends; and his best men. So freakin lay off. Seriously; we should be pulling together as a comunity to help eachother get through all of this and to help the younger ones like me & the students at Summerville High School that lost there fatherfigure also. Not doing all this crap.
On another subject i personaly don't understand at all why they made this tapes public. I compeltely agree with Coach Mulkey's dad that this is none of the publics buisness.
I lost someone who was very close to me & who ment so much to me.. and i think its pathetic that i am sitting here trying to get over this loss and try to get back into a normal life and ya'll are sitting here blaming the CFD's ways and Cheif's ways. That is not only completely immature but it is rude; disrespectful; and i can't believe people are acting like this.
My bestfriend is a jounior firefighter and has already at the age of 15 deadacated his life to firefighting and spends most of his time up at the FD. This is what he said & i completely agree with him... " Say that store caught on fire and it was as bad as it was and NOBODY dies what would happen? it would b in the paper "charleston firefighters beet deadly blayze". but no when 9 guys die saving a life it blows up and people start poinin fingers and blaming everyone, its bs! so now the whole fire dept and there firefighters get crap from everyone cuz they went in there and did what they are trained to do; save lifes & fight that fire."
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And in closing with all of this;; who ever said this..
"Chief, don't forget who pays a large chunk of your salary and the (meager) salaries of those who work under your command."
---wow that is rediculous i have so much i would love to say to you because that is compelte crap for you to be blaming cheif.
"I'll never understand why time after time they keep reelecting these idiots..."
---you mean the "idiots" who went in that burning building when everyone else was running out & who saved that man & who did exactly what they were trained to do?
"There are more men in the fire department, with as much experience and MORE education than the chief that could probably take his position or at least run it in the interim should he be put on administrative leave."
---okay so you are saying anyone can take Chief Rusty's spot? BULL CRAP!
"Obviously "The Chief's way" did not work and nine firefighters were lost unnecessarily."
---i would like to have a word with you....
And if you have anything to say to me or anything at all that has to do with this topic; feel free to email me at laurenann2442@yahoo.com ... i would LOVE to talk to you.
Posted by Radiowave on August 12, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I would like to make a recommendation to all those contributing to the ongoing coverage of the Charleston fire tragedy, that we, as a community, begin to reach consensus on specific high priority policy recommendations that are clear and actionable by the mayor and city council. The P&C raises the issue of training and dollars expended for this important aspect of modern fire fighting. Designating an assistant fire chief to that sole responsibility with dedicated staff and the appropriate budget to implement an improved training regiment is certainly something the citizens of Charleston can ask of our elected officials.
Perhaps we need to create a citizens advisory committee to make sure any recommendations are implemented and we have sustained and positive change to increase the safety of our FF and our citizens after the out of town experts go home (as one poster mentioned).
John - I work and live in Charleston and my sub division is served by CFD Engine 7 on James Island.
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
JonWithnal-"Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable."
----so you are saying that the guys who go into that burning building when everyone else is running out; the guys who go into danger to save strangers, people they have NEVER seen before; the guys who risk their lives saving others are not heros? wow; words can't explain how pissed i am that you had the nerves to say that. you are saying that the father figure; coach; teacher; and bestfriend i lost was not a hero... come & say that to the kids of Summerville High School and see what happens.. YOU have NO right to say that & you are so disrespectful and i would love to meet you in person with some of the basketball players & football players & cheerleaders; also known as the kids of Captin/Coach Louis Mark Mulkey and we can have a talk about this.
Rest In Peace Fallen Heros ..
God Bless ..
Coach Mulkey we miss you so much!
Our varsity guys beat Dutch Fork the othe night;
we knew you would be so proud of them.
LOVE YOU!
Posted by NN on August 12, 2007 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The blood of the Charleston 9 is on the hands of mayor joe 'silk drawers' riley and chief rusted thomas. bye bye you guys...you both are out of here!
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NN-"The blood of the Charleston 9 is on the hands of mayor joe 'silk drawers' riley and chief rusted thomas. bye bye you guys...you both are out of here!"
----it is on their hands as much as it is on yours jerk!!
God Bless Chief Rusty && Mayor Joe Riley.. you guys are my heros!
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 11:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
These nine men did the best job they could, with the limited training they had been given. shsgirl92, are you saying that people living in the city of charleston should close their eyes and wait till more heroes are made before removing the incompetent cancer at the top that is causing this problem.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92: Please go back and read the various posts after ALL of the articles that have appeared. Almost all of the citizens, ffs (who are under gag orders not to talk), and ffs who know what good training, excellent leadership, and equipment that meets standards, believe is that these nine were heroes. What WE all are concerned about is that, for example, your junior fire fighter friend, and the survivors of the CFD, LIVE a very long, productive life in this chosen profession. If Summerville lost all of its football or basketball games, would you think that was normal? Well, losing nine brave men is NOT normal. Something was wrong. If Captain/Coach Mulkey had been one of the survivors and nine other men had died, he would have thought the same thing.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92 - I know you're upset and I know it is hard reading stuff like this about the ones we loved and looked up to.
It's easy for these people to sit back now after the fact and put blame and talk bad.
Things will change if need be and people will leave it they must. We'll find reasons after the investigation and stuff will happen.
Just don't let these people get you upset okay?
Posted by ssm on August 12, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
$6000.00 yearly training budget for 240 employees equals $25.00 per year per person.
Posted by JuniorFF14 on August 12, 2007 at 12:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
exorcist_pencocky-"These nine men did the best job they could, with the limited training they had been given."
I dont know were you got this from! They have training everyday and I think I would know this because my 2nd dad works for the city of charleston for company 3! Its bs were you people get your info from. You don't have a clue on how the fire dept. works! If this was just another fire it would be in the paper and thats it, but those nine heros died saving someone and now you give my dad and the fire dept. crap for it, your wrong and disrespectful!
NN-"The blood of the Charleston 9 is on the hands of mayor joe 'silk drawers' riley and chief rusted thomas. bye bye you guys...you both are out of here!"
Mayor Joe Riley and Cheif Rusty Thomas will be in the city till they die, there is no scond thought. As long as im here ill vote for them!!!!!
Posted by intheknow on August 12, 2007 at 12:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
correction ssm, it would be $6000.00 spent on 33 employees per year because those 33 are part of HAZMAT AND USAR teams (which is one in the same) and they are the ONLY ones outside training is offered to.
Posted by Pluffmuddy on August 12, 2007 at 12:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Shsgirl92,
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that you are completely out of touch with reality! Where have you been??? Have you not kept up with all the facts and observations which have been coming out? Sure, some is speculation and conjecture, but most is coming from those who have a reasonably good view of the BIG picture. As more investigatory results appear, it's sheer denial to ignore what's becoming more and more evident. Blindly following the rhetoric of the Mayor and Chief is just as foolish as believing everything one hears from any other political figure...ya gotta read between the lines and use your own noodle!
Posted by aquaticorange on August 12, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Junior, as far as i know, no one can vote for fire chief.
They do not train properly. If you are training every day but do not have proper classes and certifications, if you are CHEATING on classes, then it does not matter about your training frequency.
You know, my dad works for the CFD too, and if you really did have a clue, you'd know you should be careful about what you're saying because of the gag order. Its one thing if your dad says something on here, but don't risk his job by running your mouth about things YOU obviously don't know about.
Posted by JuniorFF14 on August 12, 2007 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Pluffmuddy- "most is coming from those who have a reasonably good view of the BIG picture"
From those who had a good veiw of the over all picture? No body that night had a good overall picture. That fire got really bad really fast... Nobody really had a good graspe on what was happening.
Posted by ssm on August 12, 2007 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)
intheknow-
I'm with you. Anyway you look at it, it's a pitiful budget. And for the record agreed most are, but not all members of Hazmat are on USAR.
Posted by intheknow on August 12, 2007 at 1 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Junior, they SHOULD have had an overall grasp of what was going on, that tells you someone or many someones did NOT follow NIMS.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 1:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JuniorFF14: The statement "no body that night had a good overall picture" is one of the things that is wrong with this fire. Incident Command is one of the areas that has been addressed, not just on this board, but other boards and by expert fire fighters. Some of these fire fighters are from the CFD. They realized after the fact that no one saw the overall picture. If you ARE getting adequate training, you would know the importance of adequate Incident Command. The IC is someone on the OUTSIDE of the building who knows, among other things, (1) how many companies are on the scene (2) where the fire is the hottest and needs the most attention (3) and, especially, how many ffs (PRECISELY WHO THEY ARE) are in the burning structure. Number (3) is accomplished with accountability tags or ID tags that EVERY ff leaves with the IC before going into the burning building. CFD ffs say they do not use them. Now, listen to the tapes. Did anyone know (a) if there were ffs in that building? or (b) who those ff were?
Posted by underdog on August 12, 2007 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92 -
I am sorry for your loss. I think most everyone here does not deny the bravery and sacrifice that the deceased (and their families and friends) exemplify.
Some advice though, as you go out into the world. When you are as emotional as you are - and rightly so! - you need to take extra time before reacting to everything. It's clear from your first post that your emotion got in the way of your understanding of the various comments here.
You quoted me first, and you missed my point entirely. My comment was in no way blaming the chief for this. I know nothing of the theory of firefighting, and I wasn't there to observe IF any mistakes were made. What I find deplorable is that the chief issued a gag order barring the FFs from talking to the media. That is absolutely inappropriate. There are no security issues here, and the chief and all of the brave FFS ultimately work for us, the taxpayers.
I wish you well as you work to get through this, and I encourage you to always take a moment and make sure you understand someone before you lash out; else your argument has no merit.
Posted by Pluffmuddy on August 12, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JuniorFF,
I'm referring to the BIG picture of firefighting in general, and firefighting in Charleston in particular...not of the specific SSS incident necessarily. It's painfully obvious that no one was seeing the BIG picture that night. Now we need to step back from that incident and look at the local situation as a whole, using info as it unfolds from this fire, as well as ongoing and historical practices of the CFD.
Posted by oldcap on August 12, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We don't train for two hours. We have a two hour window where we are supposed to train. We tie knots, hook up to hydrants and do hardly anything we would see at an actual fire. Been that way for 25 years.
Look-the men who died WERE BRAVE!!!!!!!! Everyone of them died doing what they were trained to do. Sadly, we don't get quality training.
Just listen to the audio and how much Car 1 panicked. His job is to coordinate a search and we had no idea how to do it. None. Compare it with the audio on the web of how chiefs run incidents. Huge difference.
There's training for documentation, which we do, and training for fighting fires. We need this last one.
Write the maypr and tell him to help us NOW. rileyj@ci.charleston.sc.us
Oh-more will come out and will anger you.
Posted by NIMS800Chief on August 12, 2007 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Training all ranks is a crucuial element of maintaining cutting edge professional development of staff. It is costly and usually represents 7-20% of the operating budget depending on the level of department resources. It's usually first to go in the meat axe of budget cuts. relying solely on-line is a mistake and made by many departments.
Chief Thomas says he does not know if his ICS mirrors national standards? NO is the resounding answer after hearing the tapes. Then he condradicts his statment mirroring NIMS. He stated that CFDs ICS is rich in tradition meaning it is time honored and not improved on. If that was the case, Garvin would set up his command post, identify Operations Commander, safety officers, and then as Incident Commander Garvin would have formulated his accountibility system, and action plan with arriving chief officers. I never heard the term Command, Operations, Division, or Safety. Thus not applying the NIMS model to anything. The NIMS 100, 200, 700 & 800 courses alluded to are in most part on-line. If they cheat, then they cheated themselves. However the most crucial NIMS 300-400 courses required for all company, chief, and fire chief positions are tabletop exercise training that lasts 3 days. A chief officer cannot cheat their way out of that unless CFD fudged the training sheets.
Sound off CFD, this is your department. I commend you all on a most valiant rescue of a store employee and mourn your loss of 9 brothers.
Posted by burton on August 12, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If this is not the Peter Principle, I don't know what is. I've said it since the beginning: Chief Thomas will eventually resign over this once all the safety investigation reports come back. I'm standing by that.
No matter how much you may like someone or how good their heart is, there is something called accountability. Nine brave men lost their lives in a fire--let's not forget that. Nine men at one time! I'm glad that the P&C is doing this investigative reporting or how else would the public get this info?
To those supporting the Chief, I understand your loyalty but please try to be objective about this if you can. Based on the evidence I have read over the past months, it may be time for the Chief to resign his position. He does not want to become a "lame duck" Chief that has no respect from the men and women in his dept. Chief, do the right thing for the good of your dept and step down sir before this gets any worse for you. Save face now! Oh, and let's not talk about all the lawsuits that will come out of this. That is another matter in itself!
Posted by fyrmnjim on August 12, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JuniorFF & SHSgirl: There are a hundred little issues we could talk about, but let's look at the big picture here for a fire this big. A fire scene command is like a pyramid. The chirf is at the top. He should only need to talk to a few chiefs below him, those cheifs will have others below them. This works all the way down to the firefighters, the ones who are doing the work. The bigger the fire, the bigger pyramid you need. A fire this big, the chief cannot or should not try to run everything himself. He will lose control, it's just too big. If you listen to the tapes you will hear Chief Thomas talking to individual engines talking about water supply. Which is talking his attention away from other areas.
Liken this fire to a football game. The head coach has asst coaches to help him run the team during a game(offense, defense, kicking). He does not have time to talk to each player during the game. If he did he would be sending a lot of players out on the field with no idea what they are supposed to do. He needs to concentrate on the big picture, tell the assts what he wants and let them tell the players what their idividual jobs are.
Accountability is also a big issue here. The chief had no idea who was where doing what. When the men went missing, how long did it take him to find out who it was?
There are many more issues here than I can discuss in one post. If you have any questions feel free to email me at fyrmnjim@yahoo.com. I've been doing this job a very long time and I would be happy to talk to you both.
Posted by livemusic on August 12, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I can already hear the footsteps of an outgoing City of Charleston fire chief. It's definitely not his fault these heroic men died, but I think he should be held accountable for the department's training and preparedness.
Posted by intheknow on August 12, 2007 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey, I have a question! Why is it that all the chiefs get $2000 gear and lightweight Scott air packs, while the firefighters (the guys that actually go into the fire) get the lesser quality $600 gear? It doesn't seem right to me.
Posted by mbsmoky on August 12, 2007 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You don't have to wait for any reports to know these 9 died for a building!!!! Why? Here's a few.
1) Lack of any effective command / accountability structure. "Good Ole Boy" system does not count and has no place in the modern fire service!
2) Improper selection and placement of handlines.
3) No communications
4) Improper or non use of equipment ( ie.. thermal imaging camera's ) available on scene.
Chief Thomas needs to step up and except accountabilty for the loss of those men. His actions or lack of are crminal!
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 2:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
fyrmnjim: What a great analogy for JuniorFF & SHSgirl. Thanks!
Posted by jammer on August 12, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92
I understand your loss, I knew some of those people too... I lived right behind that store off of stinson dr for years
but you are completely missing the points made here due to your emotion, and not reading the text correctly
""I'll never understand why time after time they keep reelecting these idiots..."
---you mean the "idiots" who went in that burning building when everyone else was running out & who saved that man & who did exactly what they were trained to do?"
we don't elect firemen, they are hired so of course I'm not referring to them and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them and their families and am extremely sorry for their loss'
I was referring to the likes of Mayor Riley who has done nothing but damage our culture and moved out many of the locals by imminent domain and taxation
I remember when the "city" ended at the ashley river bridge, he's taken up land all the way out to what used to be the "country" and skyrocketed prices out of the reach of most locals
not to mention the many other idiocies he has done over the years, the same people he harms keep putting him back in charge because they are scared to elect someone new for fear of the unknown because they are told someone else will do worse... you know, vote for the least of two evils scheme that seems to work so well
I'm absolutely sure no one here means any blame sarcasm or harm to any of those firefighters that lost their lives or their families, which has been proven over and over by the overwhelming public support that never fades
it's the people in charge they blame that goofed this up, and it will be shown how in the months to come
as is in most of the local government departments people got where they are by who they knew or who they did favors for, we have many incompetent people in authority positions in the lowcountry... and they are slowly getting weeded out as this area comes up to speed beyond the capabilities of those pretending to run things
you can only hide your ignorance so long before it catches up in todays world, technology is a wonderful thing that most of those old "bubba's" don't understand and hopefully it'll put many of them out in the pasture where they belong
as things computerize and the "bubba's" don't understand it they will have to move aside because their bosses will start to look like idiots if they don't... and as soon as you make your boss look like an idiot you're on your way out the door
all in time all will be revealed
Posted by Harpo on August 12, 2007 at 2:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I see posts with valid data and I see posts
that are nothing more than pure emotion in
this forum. It'll always be like that; you
have to pick through the emotional ones and
weed out the actual facts.
Some good points thus far:
1. Many Online FEMA course certificates appear to
be paper tigers .. easily obtained and used for
padding the department's training profile.
2. The CFD training budget appears to be very
sparse @ $25/fire fighter when compared to other
fire department, even local ones. (Very
significant)
3. The CFD fire chief has attempted quite
unsuccessfully to muzzle his fire fighters
with regards to commenting on the fire or any
aspects of daily operations. (Significant)
4. Firefighters are among the most vociferous
critics of the chief. (Very significant)
The defensive posts backing the fire chief are
mostly emotional in nature .. they tend to
adopt an indignant posture and express outrage
at any criticism. They resort to personal
attacks on the critics but don't seem to be
able to actually refute them.
The Charleston Fire Department has some serious
problems in its management and it does not
appear to be willing to address them.
Posted by unknown_username on August 12, 2007 at 2:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92 - congrats! You've made it 15 whole years without any memorable incident to conjure such passionate outbursts. If only every 15 year old were as lucky as you are. While everyone else is patting you on the head and saying, "you poor little girl, let it all out," I refuse to bequeath such a luxury. You wanna play with the big boys - here we go.
Your beloved Rusty and Joe are master politicians who are adept at milking the Charleston public, as I've been privy to their shenanigans for nearly a quarter century. I’m glad to see someone your age actually reading the paper, but what you should not be doing is opening wide and swallowing all that Rusty and Joe are feeding. These are adult men who have made strategic decisions to get AND stay where they are. When Rusty gagged his men, he insulted those who work for him and the community that supports them. It reeks of a cover-up. His men know something that is obviously a threat to his office so the P&C are doing their best to uphold journalistic integrity by investigating every angle of the story. If it topples their reigns, so be it.
My only grievance with the other commentators is while everyone is blaming those two (and rightfully so), they should also take care to blame the people who have kept Joe in office, thus rewarding his good ol' boy ways for over three decades.
I love to break your little heart when I say, the fingers keep pointing back to Joe and to Rusty, whose yahoo ways have been rewarded by the mayor. Joe’s done wonders for tourism and historical preservation, but Charleston is still lacking in so many other areas thanks to his leadership, or should I say, lack thereof. Do you ever wonder why the mayor has been so quiet and will continue to do so until election time? Do you ever wonder why Rusty’s keeping his men quiet and spouting empty prose to the press? Your beloved heroes are politically motivated, dear little girl, with only their job security in mind.
I know you’re 15. You’re at the age when ponies and boys trump all else and you so desperately want to see the good in the world. Well, guess what – the world is NOT good and the world’s leaders are unfortunately not always pure of heart. That’s not pessimistic – that’s reality.
Instead of channeling your frustration towards the adults on the post, do something productive. Demand answers and demand action to punish those who are at fault (your “heroes”).
I understand your loss and grief. Louis was a dear friend and I think about him EVERY day. I was horrified to learn he was in that building and the image of his body being carried out is forever seared in my mind. I am infuriated that his death was preventable, but instead of having a temper tantrum, I’m writing local officials to demand answers, encouraging investigative work by outside sources, and continuing to support my FD friends. SO! Shut up, put your big girl panties on and honor the nine by doing the same.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For JuniorFF and SHSgirl: The following was posted on another board on the Post and Courier sites. It was written by a ff who worked along side your father figure, Louis Mulkey, SHSgirl and your 2nd dad, Junior ff. He is now under a gag order and cannot say these words. While he could, listen to what he said: The fire that night was brutal. We arrived and everything was a mess. Supply lines, firefighters running around, Rusty screaming. We had zero accountability. No one knew how many guys were missing for a while. There were no checks like other departments. What are they called Par checks or something like that. This wasn’t my first big fire but it was the uncontrolled fire I’ve been at. Only two chiefs seemed to know what was going on and both of them seemed to get their orders reversed too often. They were leading. My chief, a man I’ve loved for a long time, lost it. he does it at fires because he is so excitable. I don’t know about incident command. We just pull up and go in and pump the truck. Ventilation is foreign to me and I’ve never cared because this was the way we do it. Now, seeing how we looked and knowing we didn’t take basic precautions, I’m sick over it. The only thing that went well that night was leaving. Departments in Charleston – mt pleasant, st johns, st Andrews, iopalms. All have chiefs with education. They may not be pretty but they are doing something right. For all of you who are defending rusty remember you are dishonoring Earl, Mike, and each of the 9. Inside your mind you know how the scene was. And its like that at every fire.
Posted by carolinabeachgirl on August 12, 2007 at 3:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think that, for the most part, everyone can agree that there are some crucial errors at the site of the fire. Communication one of the biggest. But what about looking at the bigger picture? The city should be more proactive in inspecting a business. Anyone that ever entered the sofa super store knows what an incredible mine field that place was and the difficulty in navigating just to shop. Why did Goldstein allow a FURNITURE STORE to be that cluttered? WHY DOESN'T A FURNITURE STORE HAVE SPRINKLER'S? Not like he couldn't afford it. Seems to me the owner's are getting off easy in the media as opposed the Mayor and Chief Thomas. Oh, and nice of the P&C not to post the sofa super store ad next to this story today.
Posted by JuniorFF14 on August 12, 2007 at 3:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I understand were you all are comin from, and lookin back i see that i was wrong and i didnt look at the bigger picture. I would like to thank all of you for making me relieze what i was sayin. thank you
Posted by miki on August 12, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92: I've re-written this twice now because each time it sounds patronizing. So, I'm going to not think about your age and just say: Everyone is emotional about this issue. Emotion blinds people to seeing 100% of all sides. You're experience is no more or less valid than everyone else's. But you have to allow people to say what they feel so other's can learn from it. Unfortunately, very soon a lot more negative things will come out and some of it's going to hurt. The goal isn't to diminish the contributions made by Chief or any of our fire fighters. The goal is to make improvements to the system so others don't have to suffer the losses you have suffered. Please, don't take comments personally.
And, please, don't give your email address and personal information out. Even at MY age, that's not smart. Be careful!
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JuniorFF14: Thanks for your comments. The main thing is, until after all these investigations are over and changes are made, that you need to get your training at a qualified fire station. You have picked an honorable profession. All of us on this site and other sites want you to live to a ripe old age, putting out fires, helping people in accidents, teaching children about fire safety, and rescuing people from burning buildings. Please stay safe out there and learn the correct way of fire fighting.
Posted by JuniorFF14 on August 12, 2007 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
vesta, what do u consider the correct way of firefighting?? As of now my plan of life was to work for the city fire department!! do u consider how they fight fire the correct way?
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
JuniorFF14: At this point, the answer is no to your last question. Hopefully, by the time you are ready to become a firefighter, things may have changed in the city. What I am cautioning you about is that you do not want to be learning from a department that might be found negligent in how they handled this fire. One of the most important things is to get as much training as you can from qualified personnel who teach using NIMS (National Institute Management System) standards. Most South Carolina fire departments spend much more than $25.00 per person per year in training. Listen, learn and ask questions when you do not understand....your life depends on it. Fire fighting techniques change over the years....keep up with these changes....your life depends on it. When you finally do become a ff, make sure your department issues you the best equipment they can afford and PLEASE use it....your life depends on it.
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
all i have to say to everyone of you is that no matter what i will stand up for what i believe in; i don't care what you do or say; i will stand up for what i believe in and i will fight for it also.
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 4:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
basically to me some of ya'll are saying its the 9 men's fault that they died..
thats like telling me my dad comminted suicide when i know he went in that fire to save someone..
Posted by oldfric07 on August 12, 2007 at 4:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Look at these excerpts from the above article:
"Thomas has said that he doesn't know if his department procedures mirror those prescribed in the National Incident Management System."
Later in the article:
"In its written responses to questions, the city said "The Charleston Fire Department exercises incident command and trains all members in the NIMS system."
Write the mayor and ask him which lie is it?
Posted by bootlicked on August 12, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Junior you don't have a clue. How many times have you seen an airpack tied to a rope and sent to a fire. This is the training the men receive.I have been a city fireman and seen it so has my dad.Dad retired and always said Rusty will get someone killed ,I said the same thing and now it is true.
Posted by JuniorFF14 on August 12, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
yes i understand! but ive put a lot of thought in it and the city is were i wanna b. weather or not this is still with them. i kinda wanna follow in my 2nd dads footsteps!
Posted by shsgirl92 on August 12, 2007 at 4:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
people need to grow up; be mature; let the nine fallen hero's rest in peace; let ATF take care of the investigation; && just help the familes and friends of the fallen hero's .... seriously; put it this way; if your husband or wife was killed like these nine were woud you still be acting the way you are now & would you still be talking about all this like you are now??
Posted by easy on August 12, 2007 at 4:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Any department, whether it is Fire,Police, EMS is forced to adopt the attitude, and demeanor of the CHIEF. Or your time spent there is made to be a living HELL. You can choose to either put up with it, or get out. You see that is the exact way they think about you. If you are not one of the BOYS,you will be made to suffer, in one way of another. That is the story in so many cities and counties. And it seems to be the way things are until something like this happens until others start to pay attention and take notice. This is so true for the Chas FD. It is not only the FIRE CHIEF, but THE MAYOR who are to blame for all of this ugly mess. Left unchecked for so very long. When will everyone wake up and see this for what it is. THEY NEED TO GO. Need to be Replaced... NOW................... Before something else occurs.....
Posted by JonWithnal on August 12, 2007 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl92: nobody cares you think. You are a deeply ignorant semi-literate rube with a big dumb chip on your shoulder. Go away.
Posted by Yolie on August 12, 2007 at 5 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This tradgedy is unfortunate for everyone involved. It is so easy to sit back and point the finger at one another. The fact is we cannot bring thses heroes back.
If we all sit back and think about this whole situation we may not be so judgemental. We as a nation have suffered so many horrifc tradgedies. After every single one of them we sit back and point the finger at who is the blame. This is a natural reaction. However, those of you that have never worked as part of the police,fire, emergency,military or any organization that saves lives or put their lives on the line truly don't understand.
Any person that is in a leadership position carries the weight of the world on their shoulders. One of the most important characteristics of a leader is to be able to make a decision in a split second. Guess what people? The decision may not always be the correct one, but it has to be done. We can all sit back and speculate on what we would have done, but NOONE truly knows what they would do in that type of situation. These men worked for the fire department so I'm sure they all knew that they could lose their lives doing the job that they loved. If my house was on fire, I wouldn't be standing outside checking the credentials of emergency personnel......I served 11 yrs in the military and I know what it means to make a decision and stick by the choice I made. You all must remember that these heroes have had to make quick decisions themselves a at some point during a fire and it worked out. But I'll bet if any of them were here now they would probably tell you that they would have made the same choices the Chief had to make during the fatal fire.
Posted by fyrmnjim on August 12, 2007 at 5:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl,
NO ONE is saying these men committed suicide. They did die though because of a flawed system that should have been improved in the past and NEEDS to be improved now so that this never happens to anyone else.
The ATF is not the agency investigating the fire. They came in and assisted in determining the cause, that's it. Agencies that specialize in fires and firefighter deaths are the ones doing this part of the investigation.
If one of my family members was one of those men. I would be livid knowing that this tragedy did not have to happen.
Please do some research.
Posted by unknown_username on August 12, 2007 at 6:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh, shsgirl92. When you read the posts, it's obvious you have a knee-jerk reaction and proceed to lash the rest of us with your odious and poorly thought-out retorts without truly considering the meaning behind that to which you respond.
There isn’t a single person on this post who is trying to tell you those men played an active role in their own deaths and no one has yet to imply that you are not entitled to feel loss and grief. We are singularly denouncing the events that led to their deaths and we are uniformly demanding that someone be held accountable, as we have all experienced loss of some sort. You, on the other hand, seem to be screaming for attention and demanding validation of superfluous claims. No one has personally attacked you, so please do not respond as though slighted.
Your tirades, misuses of semi-colon’s, and Pomeranian-esque yapping, while fodder for the conversation and a source of entertainment, do not lend themselves to anything productive. My goal is not to cause offense; I’m merely attempting to explain that your desired outcome will never materialize if you continue in this manner, as there are far more productive forms of debate to be utilized.
I do hope that when you are in school this year, you put copious amounts of time into practicing critical thinking and deductive reasoning. Mastering them will behoove of you in the future, as you will find older adults rarely respond favorably to such impassioned and ill-supported arguments on a young adult’s part.
I’m glad you read the paper and I’m glad you’ve come to share, but if you are going to continue in this discussion, I beg of you; take a deep breath and really think about what you want to convey before you unleash on your keyboard. Clear, concise communication requires clear, concise thought and preparation.
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on August 12, 2007 at 6:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To all of the people out there that think "the government" spends too much money - that is the bs kind of thinking that led to a training budget of $6,000/y/240 employees. Talk to City Council - I am sure that someone on there who was againt "WASTE" caused that to happen!
Posted by whycantitbebetterhere on August 12, 2007 at 6:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For unknown_username - you have got to be kidding me. You are a pompous, simple-minded, eliteist, airbag. Leave the poor speller and punctuator alone. I am sure that they will figure it out eventually, at least they do not try to lay someone low by insulting their reading and writing skills. You are reprehensible. (Did I spell that right?)
Posted by realistic on August 12, 2007 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It is easy to throw stones but watch your own windows. I have been in the fire service for 20 yrs and have taken those online courses which personally are a joke but a good way to have some training on a slow day. After all I know how to rescue farm animals now thanks to them. But the main thing is this I have taken classes at the fire academy since 1989 and have never taken a class with a city of chas ff. I can say this that it has been well known that it is deeply tragic what took place but it didn't surprise anyone in the fire service but the loss amount was unbelieveable. Hopefully more training will come into play and for christ sakes better radio communications. Time will tell just don't let these lives be lost in vain.
Posted by lhoward on August 12, 2007 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I grew up around the fire department, climbing on the trucks when I was young. I got to ride in the truck in the parades and I thought all of those guys were amazing. My dad was a chief before Chief Rusty and he also worked under him. We both respect him tremendously. It's interesting how soon we forget that under Chief Rusty the CFD received an ISO Class 1 rating. Out of the 46,703 fire departments in the country, only fifty-five have a Class 1 rating.("ISO is a leading source of information about risk. We supply data, analytics, and decision-support services for professionals in many fields, including insurance, finance, real estate, health services, government, and human resources. Our products and services help customers measure, manage, and reduce risk.") That means that a completely unbiased third party of experts has said Chief Rusty's fire department ranks as high as it possibly could, an honor that only .117% of our nation's fire departments can also claim. No one said we needed to change or "get with the times" when we achieved that rating. So many of the harsh words for the chief are coming from people who rely solely on what was written in the paper and even on the validity of the comments of complete strangers, insisting that his job is one acquired with nepotism and that he is not truly qualified. No one says that when the son of a doctor or lawyer follows in his father's footsteps. Chief Rusty is as devoted as any chief can be--he keeps his radio with him 24/7, he answers calls when he doesn't have to. What else do you want from him? The response of Charleston, supposedly one of the most hospitable cities in the nation, is embarrassing. Remember everything Chief Rusty has done for Charleston. No one can know how they would respond in that situation unless they had experienced it. You don't have the time that hindsight provides to examine the situation and choose the best course of action. In a fire, they do what they think is best based on what they know right then. These mens' deaths were tragic, but I honestly believe everything was done as well as it could have been. When the World Trade Center collapsed, no one said those heroes were foolish for going into a building that might collapse. Why would we respond so harshly to our firefighters who did the same thing? I have the utmost faith in our fire department and I will continue to support them throughout this whole ordeal. Below is the ISO website, for anyone who would like to see for themself what the rating means.
http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/0000/pp...
Posted by COMBAT_CHALLENGE on August 12, 2007 at 7:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I have been a citizen of Charleston for over ten years now, but where I came from, we firefighters were actively trained and many of us (including myself) received degrees in applied fire science (not online....) in a 50/50 combination of classroom and actual practical field instruction in tactics and strategies. I am certainly not trying to take anything away from the dedication and hours of work that Chief Rusty and his men put into their jobs each and every day, but I believe also, that it is time that there is an equivalent training program for anyone who is going to be a position where all hell could break loose at any given time. No one can truly know how tough it is to make decisions that could ultimately save someone's life, including your own, except those of us who have done it. I would like to see all the Charleston FF's be trained according to the what the job warrants. I was trained by others who had been trained before me and so there are those of us out there willing to teach from real experience and proven college and departmental instruction (NOT the "fire science management" degree now offered at a local institution, but a fire science degree that encompasses field work and class room instruction in ICS, fire protection and sprinklers, building construction and fire codes, hazmat, EMS, fire department officership, chemistry of fire suppression, hydraulics, and pre-plans, etc., etc.) I felt that this training served us well...it was the best out there, the best there was.
I believe in Chief Rusty and Mayor Riley and know that they will always strive to do the right thing.
God Bless our city, our public servants, and those who have gone before us.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 7:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Looks as if the city of charleston has a very serious leadership problem for condoning this action. There are none more blind than those who 'will' not see. Open your eyes and see whats happing to your city, charleston.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Does no one read anymore.?? 99 percent of us have not responded harshly to the CFD Fire Fighters. We have, however, responded harshly to the lack of Incident Command, the lack of training, and the lack of proper equipment. We are on these sites because THESE VERY FIRE FIGHTERS must have known they were going to be asked to be quiet about the SSS fire. They asked us to write the mayor, city council, other citizens. Prior to their gag order, we listened to what they had to say (read one of the posts above)--they are frightened they will be the next fatality in the near future due to lack of Incident Command, lack of training, lack of proper equipment and very poor leadership. Touch decisions, fellows, are made quickly and efficiently on the fire ground by those at the top who are well educated and trained in the fire service, not those who don't keep up with the changes in the fire service but continue to do things "since time wuz time."
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 8:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you lhoward - I appreciate your comments. Many people forget the CFD is a Class I rating. It's so easy to be a Monday Morning QB.
Posted by oldcap on August 12, 2007 at 8:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Combat_Challenge:
I was around the CFD before Rusty could drive. I'm one of the few with a degree in Fire Science. You and Howard don't have a clue.
You like the chief. Fine. The men who work for him, with the exception of a small number loyal to him, don't. The ISO class 1 mess will also be straightened out soon.
For those who think the department will retain the 1 rating-think again. You are the same people who believed nothing was wrong and then feel back to this position.
The FIREFIGHTERS are supported-we receive support from people here. The Chief is another story.
You can support him though. He'll need it for retirement.
Posted by clevagirl on August 12, 2007 at 8:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe it's not too late for Chief Rusty to give up his "old school" ways and admit that it's time to embrace state-of-the-art training and compliance with safety guidelines. I don't doubt his love and dedication to his men, but he hasn't done them any favors by turning his head to compliance violations. Also, I admittedly don't know much about firefighting, but there's got to be a better way to manage a fire than what I heard on the tapes. Total confusion and chaos! Chief Rusty needs training more than his men do.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 8:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
oops--I meant tough decisions.
Posted by fyrmnjim on August 12, 2007 at 8:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Combat: Your whole post is a contratiction.
You claim to support Rusty and believe in him. Yet, the CFD is the atheism of everything you claim that you are.
Posted by COMBAT_CHALLENGE on August 12, 2007 at 8:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Dear oldcap:
I am glad that you are one of the few. I should hope that you, along with with myself, and I know many others, support this type of training along with quality inservice for all our city FFs. No offense taken...but slurs like "clueless" should be reserved for teen time text messages, not between folks who ARE on the same side.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
clevagirl
You know what's bad? For someone who has never listened to a fire over the scanner it would sound like chaos to the blind ear. However, you admit you don't know much about firefighting so how can you truly judge the tapes?
That's the problem with all this. We have people who don't know - and people who claim they know - who are all of a sudden "experts".
The ONLY people who have a relevant complaint are the men of this department.
Everyone else - including FF'ers from other states - should just sit back and let the investigation run its course.
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 8:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hebthree: I listen to fire scenes on a daily basis and, in fact, have been on the scene of a very big fire (bigger than the SSS and no ffs were lost), and what I heard on the tapes was chaos. The men of the department are not allowed to speak, remember, so their relevant complaints were aired much earlier before the gag order came into play. I wonder whether the panel has talked to any of the ffs yet. If so, did they have to have their BC with them or their training officer? In otherwords, were they once again not free to speak their minds?
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 8:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
oldfric: Is there anyway to get a copy of the CFD yearly budget for the past two years?
Posted by trinitytim on August 12, 2007 at 8:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Having been a police commander in a major metropolitan city for more than 20 years, I was always suspicious of the procedures used by CFD in this fire.
In no way am I questioning the bravery of those nine firefighters. Instead I am speaking on their behalf. They are indeed heroes but it is my humble opinion, after looking and listening to the tapes of that night that those poor guys died needlessly. The commander obviously lost control and allowed the situation to devolve into chaos.
I also believe that if the ATF does its job properly, the findings will support the termination of the chief.
God bless the Charleston 9 and their families.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Fire Chief Thomas, when the noose tightens around his political neck, and the city of charleston mayor throws you into the fire to save himself, I wonder if your men will stand behind you.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 8:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta - do you listen to the CFD scenes daily?
Posted by clevagirl on August 12, 2007 at 8:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hebthree, are you saying that it wasn't chaos? Are you satisfied that the situation was handled exactly as it should have been? As you say, I'm not used to listening to scanner tapes, but it actually isn't that difficult to follow what's going on in these. Have you listened to them? Look, I understand that you're a Chas firefighter and you feel a need to close ranks and keep this whole thing "in the family". That's a perfectly natural reaction. But if changes can prevent future tragedies from happening, how can that be a bad thing? Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to admit that maybe the way things have been done isn't necessarily the best way.
I have a feeling that the experts who are investigating will recommend some changes. I sure hope that the recommendations are received with open minds by the department.
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 8:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well Chief, maybe now is the best time to leave. While you can keep a little dignity and self respect about yourself. He's really not worth falling on your sword for, is he.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 9:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta,
I'm not saying it wasn't chaos nor am I saying it was handled properly. However, it will/would sound like chaos to someone that doesn't listen on a daily basis or who isn't trained. It very well might sound like chaos to other firefighters who aren't used to how the CFD operates.
Also - I'm not disputing that things need to change. I never said they didn't. I also didn't say the offices investigating this weren't experts.
What I am saying is that the ones who come on here that claim to be firefighters in other cities/states should really back off.
If you are a firefighter then you should know to back off and keep it in the family.
The investigation will lead to whatever the outcome needs to be but right now all this talk by outsiders who claim they are in the know are doing nothing but making the fire department look bad.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Exorcist - who are you talking to?
If it's to me - I am not a Chief.
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 12, 2007 at 9:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a question for the people in the fire service:
I know that the ISO rating or protection class rating (as it is called in the insurance business) has an effect or property insurance premiums. What else is the rating used for?
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 9:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sorry my above reply was for clevagirl and not Vesta.
Posted by fyrmnjim on August 12, 2007 at 9:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hebthree: I listen to radio traffic every 3rd day here in Dayton. I can tell you that I have never heard such a chaotic scene in my entire career. Our DC's are calm, level headed and methodical. They usually command from inside their Tahoe, facing the scene with the windows closed(no distractions or noise). When the situation changes, they stop, step back, think for a moment, then shift tactics. If Rusty woud have done this, he might have been able to see what was happening, change tactics and had a totally different outcome. In which, none of us would be here now.
Stay safe.
Posted by hebthree on August 12, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What's chaotic to you might not be chaotic to the men of the CFD.
If compared to your scene then yes one might here chaos.
BUT - this is what these men are used to. This is what they here every day. This is why it is best for everyone outside of this to just stay out.
Does this warrant a change? Possibly. Will there be a change? Maybe.
Are you here investigating the fire? No.
Are you a Charleston Fire Fighter? No.
You see where I'm going with this?
Posted by vesta on August 12, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hebthree: These are the words of a CFD ff who was at and participated in the SSS fire: "The fire that night was brutal. We arrived and everything was a mess. Supply lines, firefighters running around, Rusty screaming. We had zero accountability. No one knew how many guys were missing for a while. There were no checks like other departments. What are they called Par checks or something like that. This wasn’t my first big fire but it was the uncontrolled fire I’ve been at. Only two chiefs seemed to know what was going on and both of them seemed to get their orders reversed too often. They were leading. My chief, a man I’ve loved for a long time, lost it. he does it at fires because he is so excitable. I don’t know about incident command. We just pull up and go in and pump the truck. Ventilation is foreign to me and I’ve never cared because this was the way we do it. Now, seeing how we looked and knowing we didn’t take basic precautions, I’m sick over it. The only thing that went well that night was leaving. Departments in Charleston – mt pleasant, st johns, st Andrews, iopalms. All have chiefs with education. They may not be pretty but they are doing something right. For all of you who are defending rusty remember you are dishonoring Earl, Mike, and each of the 9. Inside your mind you know how the scene was. And its like that at every fire." Now, my question to you is: Are you alive? Yes. Are nine other firefighters alive? No. You see where I am going with this?
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow, I leave the posts for a day and it explodes..
SHS children: My daughters and son are also SHS kids...they knew Coach, just as you...I knew of him through my work volunteering with football...my son played for him, my daughter had him in class...Louis is one my main motivations for doing this...actually, it is his wife and parents. I met them at the funeral home. I hugged them, spoke to them, gave them my condolences as many more did. They were gracious, wonderful people, concerned for others...I have a feeling that is where Louis got his drive for fire service..to help and comfort people..that was his job..BUT, that job while it has risks does not have to be a fatal one. They wear boots, helmets, gloves, airpacks, etc...for what? To protect them the BEST way possible. In addition, they are to be trained. By superior officers with knowledge and experience to follow. Rusty has NEVER had that knowledge. I have been given information from insiders, people who KNOW him better than the rest of us. Here is what they say:That the Chief was given his position of Battalion Chief over other men in line way before him. More training, more experience. He was then given the Chiefs position, again, over the training and experience of other men with way more time. What does this mean? It appears that Rusty was advanced to his current position because of WHO he knows, not WHAT he knows. it is called nepotism. Many of these men very easily could have been more qualified and trained than the Chief, but HE still made the calls. His inexperience put many people in danger for a very long time, and his failure to bring about change to modernize the department contributed to the situation that led to their deaths. He did NOT kill them, his lack of knowledge(training and compliance with NIMS LAWS) did. He is NOT evil. He did NOT a bad man. BUT he DID make mistakes he never should have.
(CONT)
Posted by trinitytim on August 12, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hebthree, you sound like a great guy, very knowledgeable but maybe just a little defensive. Just because we are not members of the CFD doesn't mean that we can't have an opinion on this tragedy. In fact, some of us care very deeply that these great men lost their lives, in what I personally believe was an unnecessary event which may have been caused by incompetant command.
I am more than willing to wait for the investigaton to be completed as long as the truth is allowed to come out. When that happens, everyone will benefit especially the members of the CFD.
God bless all firefighters, paramedics, and police officers serving in this great country.
I speak as a retired police officer/commander for the Washington DC police department and the father of a Florida firefighter.
Posted by WardLaFrance on August 12, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CFD Firefighters may train every day, but if the training offered is outdated or outmoded, if the trainers are not keeping abreast of the newest methods- if they allow pencil whipping on tests and do not test skills then there is no benefit to this training.
AND
Knowing that their training is extremely lacking, where do they go from here? Can any official, in good conscience allow the City of Charleston Fire Department to continue to "protect" lives and property? Do they continue to keep their class 1 rating? It is my understanding that the Class 1 rating is based solely on the peninsular city and the outlying annexed areas are not included in the Class 1 rating. Do the citizens of the annexed areas such as James Island, Johns Island and Daniel Island feel they made a mistake after allowing themselves to be annexed into the city because of "services?" How safe do the city dwellers feel? Just asking.
Posted by MJLowery on August 12, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
shsgirl: if you'd kept up with the facts or listened to the nearly seven hours of tape, you might be singing a different tune.
NO ONE is saying those 9 men went into the blaze pointlessly. communication was extremely poor and instructions were chaotic and lax, on the parts of some responders. if you know ANYTHING about the procedures or training behind rescue responding, you'd understand that losing 9 in a fire is unheard of and unacceptable.
we WILL discuss this and find answers because WE - unlike you at this point - never, EVER want to bury that many firefighters again.
i knew louis personally myself ... and if you knew him well, you know that he NEVER settled for less than one's BEST. if he had lived and learned that 8 of his ff brothers were lost in a fire, you can be SURE that he'd be fighting tooth and nail to make sure such a loss never happened again.
honor your coach by living up to what he stood for.
Posted by oldcap on August 12, 2007 at 9:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The scene was complete chaos just like it is whenever Car 1 arrives.
Look-everyone can argue but Rusty will leave and likely take some of his chiefs with him. They will cite health reasons but the truth is they will go because when records are completely turned over the outcry will be three times what this is and it will come from supporters of Mayor Riley.
In a month when more issues come to light who will stand up and defend? Who's going to defend an in-depth look at the budget? When promotions are examined and the chief officers are given questions that only three or four can answer, what will the rest do?
Posted by charleytowngirl on August 12, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
good point, MJLowery
Posted by exorcist_pencocky on August 12, 2007 at 10:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hebthree, you talk as if this is a small problem, emanating from and radiating around the city of charleston fire department, that no one else can think or worry about. Remember, when the city of charleston fire department goes out on a call, what they do and how they do it affects every single citizen and we visitors to the city of charleston. Don't these people have the right to feel safe in their own city. For a very long time they have heard the propaganda 'The Largest and Best trained' in the region. Now, they simply know the truth, they were lied to. The persons responsible for this are at the top, not the ordinary fireman doing the best he can with what he has. My heart goes out to them, and may God protect them always.
Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 10:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If you want to honor Coach and his fallen brothers, then RESEARCH...don't believe what you hear here in this site..DIG.dig for yourselves...ask the men and women inside who are unable to come forward with their real names in fear because the administration doesn't want what they have to say to come out.
Click on their names...ALL CFD men posting here...get BOTH sides, then YOU make the decision...
Junior FF: look at the picture in the early stage of the fire...do you see the big crack in the front right facade(top fake wall) near the words, SOFA SUPER STORE?
SEE the smoke? What causes that? Well, most people believe, as do I, that this is the result of heat on the truss system. You are a junior ff, you can grasp this lesson son...what happens to steel trusses when they get heated to temps of between 900-1100 degrees? They weaken and 'stretch'...causing this "crack" in the seam that runs along the entire right side of the main building...the roof was compromised BEFORE these men went in. The responsible person, failed to catch that. Further meaning, there is a VERY good probability that this fire was BEHIND them from the get go...and the golden rule of firefighting is? NEVER LET THE FIRE GET BEHIND YOU. Add it up son...please...
Heroes do NOT have to die. I am willing to answer questions if you need them...PM me, we can talk.
Posted by